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DMM pivot belay vs Mammut smart vs Petzl GriGri2

Original Post
Spidey Rocks · · San Francisco · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

I just want to get one device that would work best for both sports and trad climbs (including multi-pitch that might involve bringing up two climbers) with partners who will likely be considerably heavier than me. Was going to go with DMM but wanted to see if others are familiar with the full range of usages of these devices and suggest which is the best based on the kind of climbing I'll do.

dmmclimbing.com/dmm-pivot-b…

backcountry.com/mammut-smar…

outdoorgearlab.com/Belay-De…

Thanks!

Rob WardenSpaceLizard · · las Vegans, the cosmic void · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 130

If you want one device to rule them all. The smart is a strong contender. It is larger than the pivot but more versatile than the grigri. With the benefit of costing less. Belaying in guide mode from the top is effortless. Very low feeding friction. It is harder to release from the top than the pivot or grigri. The assisted breaking is song but not as strong a grigri. The benefits of the smart over the grigri are substantial there becuase the device does not need to be held in an unlocked state to feed slack to a leader. It also requires good belay habits. The grigri has been know to make newer climbers sloppy.

The smart requires a very large Karabiner to function properly. If I could only buy one, it would be the smart.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

the alpine smart has various "hidden" undocumented "failure modes" ...

just be aware of em ...

the grigri also has "failure" modes, but most of em are well documented

i own and use both

;)

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040

Probably worth mentioning is that, out of those choices, the pivot will be the best option for trad. The other two don't lend well to soft catching so you may have to incorporate some jumping or other creativity when trying to minimize impact force on a sketchy piece.

Just something to consider.

Also [fwiw] i was dropped about 15-18' more than i should have been when falling at the midpoint of a route by someone using a Smart. He had been using the Smart for well over a year at that point so he was familiar with it. He isn't entirely sure of what happened but it may have been a communication issue. I'm not sure what the issues are that Bearbreeder is referencing but I'd be interessted in reading through posts if it's been covered here; just for entertainment of my own interests.

Forthright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 110

Just get a ATC Guide, Reverso 3, or DMM Pivot if you only want ONE device.

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525

GriGri+ATC

Yer Gonna Die · · Cragville · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 175

why does the dmm pivot exist? it makes lowering easier by pivoting, but doesn't the atc guide and reverso also pivot around the carabiner?

EthanC · · Bay Area, CA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 253

@rich, it's about moment arms. In a guide, the distance between the rope force and the carabiner is say, 3 inches. The distance from your hand to the carabiner is 4 inches. Therefore you have a 4/3 force advantage trying to raise the climber. In the pivot, you remove about an inch by moving the pivot point closer to the forces. Therefore you have a 3/2 force advantage. Making up ballpark numbers, but that's why it works.

If I had to choose one device, I would say the pivot, but I use a Smart for single pitch belaying.

Mason Roberts · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 197
Rich zz wrote:why does the dmm pivot exist? it makes lowering easier by pivoting, but doesn't the atc guide and reverso also pivot around the carabiner?
The pivot is easier to release and control when weighted, at least in my experience.

I would go for the pivot if you're going to get one - it's my personal preference. However, I also carry a grigri on trad climbs. The system I prefer, and it changes depending on partner, is belay with the leader on a grigri, use the guide mode with the pivot when belaying the second, and repelling with the pivot.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Daryl Allan wrote:Probably worth mentioning is that, out of those choices, the pivot will be the best option for trad. The other two don't lend well to soft catching so you may have to incorporate some jumping or other creativity when trying to minimize impact force on a sketchy piece. Just something to consider. Also [fwiw] i was dropped about 15-18' more than i should have been when falling at the midpoint of a route by someone using a Smart. He had been using the Smart for well over a year at that point so he was familiar with it. He isn't entirely sure of what happened but it may have been a communication issue. I'm not sure what the issues are that Bearbreeder is referencing but I'd be interessted in reading through posts if it's been covered here; just for entertainment of my own interests.
- rope migrating into other channel and locking the device on TR or lead belay
- handle getting bumped or caught on autoblock and releasing the device
- belayer "parking" the thumb on the catch even when not feeding, potentially keeping the device open (suspect thats what happened in yr drop)
- biner rotating and getting the gate stuck in the wide alpine smart slot, can be difficult to fix under tension and may unscrew the biner or damage the rope
- smart having real issues "locking" by itself on high impact whippers on ropes at the bottom end of its range, as documented by the DAV

thats just the ones just off the top of my head ... theres also "usability" issues as well

all of these can be overcome if the user is AWARE of the issues and knows the fix ...

but needless to say the alpine smart is not to the same "assisted locking" as the grigri ... nor as simple as a tube ...

the issue is that folks think its a "beginner" device ... with the various "failure" modes the alpine smart aint ...

its a device for an experienced climber who understands its limitations and benefits ...

;)
Rope Byrne · · Colorado Springs · Joined May 2015 · Points: 105

Try to lower while in guide mode with the Smart. That is not a pleasant experience. It is also true that trying to unlock the Smart while it is loaded can be tough.

The Pivot does seem to be equipped to lower from above (multi pitch) and so it may be worthwhile mentioning that. However, the Pivot does not seem to have any autoblocking capabilities. I don't know if that matters or not.

From my experience with the Smart, the autoblocking is not very severe, so I don't think that it generates too much shock loading while in use.

Using the gri gri on lead requires more coordination than I like and so I tend to dislike it for that reason (pulling out slack). Not to mention that the price of the gri gri is significantly higher than the other devices.

Rope Byrne · · Colorado Springs · Joined May 2015 · Points: 105
bearbreeder wrote: - rope migrating into other channel and locking the device on TR or lead belay - handle getting bumped or caught on autoblock and releasing the device - belayer "parking" the thumb on the catch even when not feeding, potentially keeping the device open (suspect thats what happened in yr drop) - biner rotating and getting the gate stuck in the wide alpine smart slot, can be difficult to fix under tension and may unscrew the biner or damage the rope - smart having real issues "locking" by itself on high impact whippers on ropes at the bottom end of its range, as documented by the DAV thats just the ones just off the top of my head ... theres also "usability" issues as well all of these can be overcome if the user is AWARE of the issues and knows the fix ... but needless to say the alpine smart is not to the same "assisted locking" as the grigri ... nor as simple as a tube ... the issue is that folks think its a "beginner" device ... with the various "failure" modes the alpine smart aint ... its a device for an experienced climber who understands its limitations and benefits ... ;)
I would recommend purchasing a locking carabiner that is specifically recommended by the manufacturer for the Smart. I use the edelrid locker with mine and I'm happy (no rotating carabiner and it is proper shape/size to avoid rope moving around in the slots).
EthanC · · Bay Area, CA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 253

-
- belayer "parking" the thumb on the catch even when not feeding, potentially keeping the device open (suspect thats what happened in yr drop)

I've been using the smart for a number of years, I feel like the smart gets a lot of unfair criticism, but this has happened to me as the belayer. This has happened twice when someone has fallen unexpectedly while on lead.

My instinct when I feel a tug in the rope is that someone wants slack and I'm short roping. I think what happens is when not paying attention, with a light climber, holding the device opens with the thumb. This prevented me from feeling a "jerk" as the climber fell, but instead as a very urgent "tug," causing me to feed more slack. It took me consciously realizing that this was not slack, but a fall, to brake, leading to much larger falls than necessary.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Sam Byrne wrote: I would recommend purchasing a locking carabiner that is specifically recommended by the manufacturer for the Smart. I use the edelrid locker with mine and I'm happy (no rotating carabiner and it is proper shape/size to avoid rope moving around in the slots).
biners are another whole bunch of worms with the alpine smart

for thicker 10mm+ ropes it needs to be pretty wide or you feeding is shiet ... the best ive found is the petzl williams ...

however the alpine smart eats biners faster than a famished alpinist at an all you can eat organic wild salmon sushi buffet ...

the alpine smart by its nature focuses the wear and wears out biners very quickly

for daily use outside a belay biner lasts as little as 6 months ...

also if you use ibeam biners, theyll develop a sharp edge pretty fast ... you can see this on my belay biners



while the "cheaper" price of the alpine smart is attractive to some over a grigri ...the number of biners itll blow through with constant outdoor use makes it pretty even in the long run ...

EthanC wrote: - - belayer "parking" the thumb on the catch even when not feeding, potentially keeping the device open (suspect thats what happened in yr drop) I've been using the smart for a number of years, I feel like the smart gets a lot of unfair criticism, but this has happened to me as the belayer. This has happened twice when someone has fallen unexpectedly while on lead. My instinct when I feel a tug in the rope is that someone wants slack and I'm short roping. I think what happens is when not paying attention, with a light climber, holding the device opens with the thumb. This prevented me from feeling a "jerk" as the climber fell, but instead as a very urgent "tug," causing me to feed more slack. It took me consciously realizing that this was not slack, but a fall, to brake, leading to much larger falls than necessary.
it happens with a grigri too ... the difference is that its VERY well documented with a grigri to the point where petzl has an entire video on it ...

many smart users arent aware of the issue, until it happens to them

ive made he same mistake ... you REALLY need to watch that thumb when belaying with a smart

;)
EthanC · · Bay Area, CA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 253

While I'm a weekend warrior, so don't climb outside exclusively, I've used the same Petzl William HMS with my smart for over two years, and I'm only just now considering replacing it. So YMMV.

Spidey Rocks · · San Francisco · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15
bearbreeder wrote: -alpine smart is not to the same "assisted locking" as the grigri ... nor as simple as a tube ... the issue is that folks think its a "beginner" device ... with the various "failure" modes the alpine smart aint ... its a device for an experienced climber who understands its limitations and benefits ... ;)
So @ bearbreeder, what is your recommendation in light of the above, that I'm lighter than most, and for the kind of climbing I'm doing?
EthanC · · Bay Area, CA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 253

Pivot

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Spidey Rocks wrote: So…what is your recommendation in light of the above, that I'm lighter than most, and for the kind of climbing I'm doing?
for thinner ropes just use a tube (guide/reverso/pivot/etc)

for single ropes if you want "assisted locking" in case of rockfall ... bring a grigri and a tube ...

if you really want to go light on thicker ropes use a munter and a gigi for multi ...

;)
Spidey Rocks · · San Francisco · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15
bearbreeder wrote: for thinner ropes just use a tube (guide/reverso/pivot/etc) for single ropes if you want "assisted locking" in case of rockfall ... bring a grigri and a tube ... if you really want to go light on thicker ropes use a munter and a gigi for multi ... ;)
Hmm…my original question is what is the ONE device you'd buy. I guess you're rooting for GriGri2?
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Spidey Rocks wrote: Hmm…my original question is what is the ONE device you'd buy. I guess you're rooting for GriGri2?
theres no such thing as "one BEST device" ...

it all depends on the situation ...

belaying "hard" sport climbers taking repeated whippers and hangdogging ... grigri or single channel smart ...

twin/double ropes and rapping ... a tube with autoblock ...

autoblock with thicker ropes? ...... gigi or alpine smart ...

if you climb a variety of stuff with a variety of ropes youll have more than one device

the closest you can come is to tell a beginner to "just buy an ATC guide" ...

;)
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Spidey Rocks wrote: Hmm…my original question is what is the ONE device you'd buy. I guess you're rooting for GriGri2?
One device won´t do everything well, most people use a tube and something like a GriGri depending on what they are doing. The best single device (if we have to have one) is the ATC XP Guide.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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