Communication when you cannot hear your partner?

The people suggesting that it's possible almost all the time to keep the leader in sight or sound must only have experience climbing in a small number of places. I haven't even been climbing that long, but almost every multi-pitch I've climbed has involved the leader going out of sight: red rocks, Liberty bell group, Mazama goat wall, Leavenworth castle rock

Thatcher wrote:The people suggesting that it's possible almost all the time to keep the leader in sight or sound must only have experience climbing in a small number of places. I haven't even been climbing that long, but almost every multi-pitch I've climbed has involved the leader going out of sight: red rocks, Liberty bell group, Mazama goat wall, Leavenworth castle rock

In most places it is possible to set up a belay without getting out of sight. It isn't always ideal, but in bad conditions or with inexperienced partners it can be the safe call. Consider it the "laying up to a water hazard" of the climbing world (golf term if you aren't clear on that). Choosing to do this can be the difference between an enjoyable day out on the wall or a hoarse throat and a silent drive home with no stop for celebration beers.

I have solid partners who I can trust out of visibility and we have plans for how to handle most situations that might arise. This is built on the trust that comes from dozens or even hundreds of pitches climbed together.

I also climb with a lot of randoms and students and it isn't always clear how competent they are. In a guiding situation I keep my students within eyesight unless absolutely necessary. With new climbing partners I'll discuss a plan, but be prepared for them to forget it and improvise when needed. If you don't have the skills to improvise or don't trust them to keep their cool/not do stupid shit when things go awry then it is wise to set up belays with this in mind. It might mean more pitches on a route, but you will likely move faster and have more fun (not spend half an hour at the belay yelling back and forth in the wind) than if you pitched it out the way the guide book tells you to.

Ancent wrote:What do you do? Hope that there's a couple pieces of pro above this constriction and start climbing with a prusik to take in slack, hoping that if you fall the constriction, your leader's anchor, or another piece of pro will catch you? Do something more complicated to make sure there is always an anchor for the team?

As a friend and boss once said to me..."Hope is a really shitty risk management solution".

If the rope is stuck and you have zero way off communicating to the climber then you are in a really rare situation. Generally if a rope is going to get stuck close enough to you that you can reach it efficiently then it is going to happen early in the lead and you'll be able to communicate with one another.

On the off chance that this crazy situation happens, then finding the solution to the situation is the lead climber's job. Think of the belayer as the co-pilot. You have one job (keep me on belay) and you will continue to do that until instructed otherwise*.
Trust me, if I am on lead and slack suddenly stops moving my first move is to figure out how to free the rope. I am going to be working my ass off to figure out a solution to this issue and I don't want my belayer monkeying around on a prussik without my knowledge. I want you to keep me on belay. If I can't free the rope then my next step is to secure myself and get in contact with you. Once we are in communication, then you can offer solutions and let me know that somehow the rope got jammed up 15 feet above your head and that you are in a position to free it. Until then, sit tight and keep your hand on the rope.

*Your climbing partner may have different thoughts on this, but generally this is how things should be run.

when in doubt

- leader pulls the rope and puts the second on RIGHT AWAY ... or even before that if theres any question at all (resistance) ... if youre fumbling to get em on belay quickly and you think they might be climbing then put em on a munter ASAP, or at worst a hip belay

- the second keeps the leader on belay and keeps feeding the rope till the end

as long as the BOTH do that, its fine

the biggest exception is if its the end of the rope and theres no communication ... using a 70m rope and recognizing when to build a belay early will prevent that issue

if one is constantly "inadvertently" simuling then using a microtraxion inline will provide some protection

;)

patto wrote:My plan for morderate ground: I'm just going to climb buddy. If I run out of rope and I'm not at a belay I'll just climb until I get to one. If you run out of rope, take me off belay and start climbing...

Yep. Patto and Ancent have it exactly right. Having used walkie talkies and the tug system, I finally realized that I was over-complicating things. When you can't communicate, the rules are simple:

Leader
1. Don't ever take in rope without a belay
2. If you hit the end of the rope, back off and wait for slack before climbing again (and build a belay asap)

Follower
3. Don't take the leader off belay until the end of the rope
4. When the rope comes tight, climb
5. Don't allow significant slack to develop (i.e. stop climbing if the rope isn't moving)

If you think through it all, if both sides follow these rules, you should be fine. It even allows an automatic transition to simulclimbing if needed.

Of course, a stuck rope or a bad fall will challenge this just like any other system. That said, you can do a lot within the framework of the system.

Suspected leader fall - follower escapes the belay (#3 ensured by direct connection to anchor) and investigates. If leader has just stopped, rule #2 ensures they stay put.

Suspected follower fall - leader escapes the belay and descends to investigate. If follower has just stopped, rule #5 ensures they stay put.

Kauait wrote:In times of need. A whistle works great. Saved me and partners alot of unneeded stress.There is a built in wistle on my helmet. Or bring one, Weight is of no concern.

I do not think a whistle would be the best idea. Whistles are used for emergencies, so whistling at the crag could lead to confusion or even worse a rescue team could be dispatched.

As a Wyoming native where the wind blows all the time and climbed a great deal in the Winds (appropriately named by native Americans!) and the Tetons I've had to deal with communication issues.

I agree with others that it is not that complicated. Having a familiar partner helps, but no matter the climber, there are patterns to rope movement which are common and can be used to decipher what the leader or follower is doing.

First of all, you should have a general idea of how long the next pitch is. If the leader is going to link pitches, agree to that before starting.

While leading, the rope will move in staccato fashion as the leader stops to place gear or figure out moves.

When the leader gets to the next belay, the rope will not move for an extended period of time. The belayer should have an idea if the leader is at the belay based on the amount of rope left. The extended period of time is because the leader is setting anchors for the belay.

Once the belay is set, the leader pulls up the slack in the rope and puts it on belay. The belayer sees all the slack get pulled up which is a clue that the leader is ready to belay. Once on belay, the leader pulls on the rope again - it will not move because the leader is still on belay and it is at the end of the rope. This is another clue that the leader is ready to belay.

The belayer will take the leader off belay and disassemble the anchor. Although the leader is off belay, there is some protection due to the weight of the belayer and the fact he is at the end of the rope. When the belayer unties the anchor, there will be a few feet of slack in the rope. The leader tries again to pull up slack - now he gets a few feet of rope - a clue that the belayer has removed the anchor.

The belayer starts to climb. If the slack is taken out as he climbs, it's a clue he's on belay. If slack doesn't get taken out, maybe the leader doesn't have the belayer on belay and he should put a piece or two as an anchor (I've never had this happen in decades of trad climbing!). As the belayer moves higher, it will become possible to either see or verbally communicate and things get simpler.

Yes, there are all kinds of "what ifs" that can happen which make the situation much more dangerous and difficult. Without communication, my personal default is to keep the leader on belay and have him deal with it (e.g. stuck rope).

My partner and I are new to trad, and at least 3/4 of all pitches we've done put us out of sight and earshot. We've been doing the method discussed here, where the leader builds the anchor, then pulls all slack until the follower is tight and put them on belay. With rope tight, the follower knows they are on belay and can start climbing.

The only problem is, what to do when the second needs to, for example, put her shoes on before climbing. If I pull the rope tight, she can't sit down to put on her shoes (a problem when at the bottom of the first pitch, or at comfortable belays with ledges). This also wastes time, since I have all the slack pulled and have her on belay and ready, but now I'm waiting for her to get ready. (Violates the idea of both climbers always doing something).

So, I tried to change it up so that once I'm secure, but anchor not fully built, I signal to her to take me off belay by quickly pulling a few lengths of rope. This was mentioned above by another poster. Then, while she is getting ready, I'm building anchor and pulling rope. By the time I am done pulling rope, she is also ready to climb. This caused confusion the first time, since we hadnt fully walked through the process before hand. It was also weird because I have pulled up 20' of rope or so; do I let it drop ( confusing the climber), or clove hitch the amount I pulled so I don't have to re-pull it. There must be a more straightforward way to deal with this. I'm sure I'll figure it out after a few more climbs, but if anybody has thoughts or suggestions I'd like to hear. One person above mentioned to pull out all slack, then feed back a couple meters. Maybe this the reason for 2m of slack? And if doing this method, I would think the second would need to give some rope tugs to indicate to pull the remaining slack when ready to climb.

Regarding the question above:

As the bottom belayer, soon-to-be follower, try to be ready to climb as soon as the rope gets taught. Sometimes easier said then done, yes, but especially on pitches where you are out of sight and ear-shot, just keep those shoes on one more pitch.

Especially if we know the pitch, the bottom belayer will get the sense that the leader is building an anchor and can start fiddling/cleaning the belay. If the pitch was only 30 m and I know my leader isn't linking, I have a sense of when he/she is at the next belay and I start tiddying my spot to be ready to climb once the rope is taught. One hand keeps the belay device locked and the other puts on a backpack, or works the anchor to be ready for easier deconstruction. As the belayer, you have tons of time to think about being efficient...

You mentioned being efficient with each climber doing something: that's a great "rule" but not if it makes it more complicated because anchors are being built out of the normal sequence. Do whatever you and your partners agree upon, but simpler is better in my opinion.

Ancent wrote:Regarding the question above: One hand keeps the belay device locked and the other puts on a backpack, or works the anchor to be ready for easier deconstruction. As the belayer, you have tons of time to think about being efficient

An assisted brake device (or better yet gri gri) and a backup "catastrophe" knot can let the belayer take both hands off to get their tasks done sooner. I've done this frequently in the alpine when you REALLY have to be efficient and I'm with partners I'm dialed with. I can usually be ready to climb with all but one (bomber) piece of the anchor well before the rope goes taught a second time signalling that I'm on belay.

Jim as for the rope going tight when you need to get shoes on etc. quandary, that problem is greatly reduced when you are using a clove to the anchor and have yourself taught. If it looks like you'll need a little extra time to get ready as a belayer you can either just grab the rope as your leader is pulling up the slack so that it comes taught in your hand before tugging on the anchor. As soon as they drop tension to put the rope in their device you bust out and finish the task at hand. This is also helpful in situations where you expect long pauses in the climbing for route finding that could be confused as time building the anchor. After the rope is loaded in their device you can easily tell by the speed and length of pulls that they are taking in rope through the device and the belay is on.

Thanks Nick and Ancent, good tips.

Ancent wrote:I do the same, but are you saying that you've never had an experience where rope drag around an unexpected feature disrupted this "feeling?" It happens, and the "rope-connection" that you speak of can go from a definitive I-feel-everything to grueling/dragging rope where it is impossible to tell if the leader is just bearing through with rope drag (still climbing) or gave up (built a belay and is belaying in slack).

If you have significant rope drag then you have yet another problem and should probably be thinking harder about the whole rope system you are building as a leader. It means either you aren't slinging appropriately or you should have been climbing on doubles.

Ancent wrote:If it's a long climb, you'll never get anywhere quickly or tire yourself out if you're always on belay, especially at the top belay. ...

Wait, huh? This rates a big WTF in my book, as in seriously? You can't belay for the whole climb without tiring yourself out? Man, if that's the case you are way, way out of your league and shouldn't be on the climb to begin with.

Ancent wrote:As another question, regardless of communication methods: What happens if the rope stops moving entirely, and you (the bottom belayer) find out the rope is stuck in a notch halfway up (you know this either because you see it, or knew that this was possible are simply inferring). The leader may either have built a belay or is also trying to free the stuck rope and still leading, but you have no way of knowing. What do you do? Hope that there's a couple pieces of pro above this constriction and start climbing with a prusik to take in slack, hoping that if you fall the constriction, your leader's anchor, or another piece of pro will catch you? Do something more complicated to make sure there is always an anchor for the team?

This is again a case of you now have a different problem which should have been avoided (and that I've never experienced in decades of climbing and have only witnessed in the context of rappelling.). But if it did happen, and I can see the notch and know it happened, then yeah, I'm going to wait a bit (given the rope isn't going anywhere soon) and watch the rope just above the notch to see if the leader is trying to clear it or see if they come back down to clear it. If not, then I'm going to self-belay up and clear it taking care of my own protection as best as possible in the process and assume the leader has similarly secured themselves.

But, in general, as in both these scenarios, don't create unnecessary problems for yourself that you then have to solve and possibly put yourself at risk while doing so.

Walkie talkies.

In regards to the whistle, I would imagine that the people using them are not frantically blowing them as one would most likely being doing in an emergency situation. A few concise whistle blasts to let someone know on/off belay, etc. seems like a perfectly good back up plan to walkie talkies (say the batteries die or I drop one). I've tried the rope tug method before and there is too much room for error. Climbing is dangerous enough, the last thing I need is a miscommunication between myself and my belayer.

imagine yr typical short multi out here (6 pitches or so) ...

now imagine yr typical busy sunny weekend with stacked belays ... 6 or more parties on the route

now imagine all these parties using whistles blowing them hard ...

now imagine several of these routes being in close proximity ... for example on the apron here, you have 3+ popular 6+ pitch routes decently close

now imagine every party on these routes blowing whistles ... thats 36 whistlers (6 parties per route, 3 routes, 2 folks per party) ...

and out here if you do use a whistle on a busy day there is a good chance someone will assume its a rescue situation ...

thats all there is to it

;)

Daniel Evans wrote:In regards to the whistle, I would imagine that the people using them are not frantically blowing them as one would most likely being doing in an emergency situation. A few concise whistle blasts to let someone know on/off belay, etc. seems like a perfectly good back up plan to walkie talkies (say the batteries die or I drop one). I've tried the rope tug method before and there is too much room for error. Climbing is dangerous enough, the last thing I need is a miscommunication between myself and my belayer.

As mentioned up-thread, how the hell did we all survive for decades before walkies, cell phones, and whistles?

Saw a couple once do all their signaling by iPhones - would have been funny if it weren't so damn sad.

Healyje wrote:Saw a couple once do all their signaling by iPhones - would have been funny if it weren't so damn sad.

"I remember when a dime bag was a dime! Ya know how much condoms were?"

Maybe we could start a whole new thread naming the different kinds of climbers..

You ever seen the back of a one dollar bill? Seen the back of the one dollar bill... On weed??

Marc801 wrote: As mentioned up-thread, how the hell did we all survive for decades before walkies, cell phones, and whistles?

It has nothing to do with how old school and bad ass you are. Why wouldn't you use technology when available to eliminate the need for threads like this in the first place? Keep doing whatever you're doing. I am just saying walkie talkies have made life much easier for me on multipitch routes. Plus if there is something that the second needs to tell me that can't be said by a few rope pulls I can have a full conversation with them rather than sitting at the anchor wondering what the hell is going on.

bearbreeder wrote:imagine yr typical short multi out here (6 pitches or so) ... now imagine yr typical busy sunny weekend with stacked belays ... 6 or more parties on the route now imagine all these parties using whistles blowing them hard ... now imagine several of these routes being in close proximity ... for example on the apron here, you have 3+ popular 6+ pitch routes decently close now imagine every party on these routes blowing whistles ... thats 36 whistlers (6 parties per route, 3 routes, 2 folks per party) ... and out here if you do use a whistle on a busy day there is a good chance someone will assume its a rescue situation ... thats all there is to it ;)

I said whistles would be a great back up, not a primary means of communication. I've been on multipitch climbs where multiple people have walkie talkies and it works out great. There is no point in arguing this any further, you all are going to continue doing what works for you and I will continue doing what works for me. But to the OP, walkie talkies are my recommendation over rope tugs.