Idea Check

climbing friend,

the usefulness comes from tying it thong style between your legs, so you may get the others to look at your junk, yes myah?

Mike13 wrote: I'm also curious as to what Max means when he says his partner adds a step? If you don't trust a PAS as a singular anchor, I would agree it's useless.

I have and still often do tie in with the rope and use a tether. It's redundant, but attaching yourself to the anchor twice is better than having a brain fart and not even doing it once. I've forgotten to spin up a locker more than once, or not correctly set a clove. The more comfortable I am at the belay anchor, the less likely I am to use the tether.

Mike13, s/he's referring to clipping in first with the PAS at a belay anchor, then going in with the rope. Compared to going in straight with the rope in the first place, it is an extra step. Most climbers advocate using the rope as a connection to an anchor for belaying as opposed to relying just on a static connection. Tethers for personal use and rapping (ie not belaying the next pitch) are a different story.

As for the usefulness of the PAS, personal preference. I'm not sure why people get so riled up about other people using them. I choose not to, but I don't care one bit if you choose to use one. I'd rather you not use it as your primary connection to an anchor if belaying me, but that's about it.

As for the OP, I think that is a fine use of a PAS. It is essentially what I do with a daisy while aid climbing.

Rick Blair wrote: This is a 100% untrue statement. Usefulness != preference. Most of the time I tie knots in runners myself.

You're right, I chose the wrong word. I guess unnecessary was more what I was looking for. They do have a use. They are useful for cluttering harnesses and belays. I don't care when people use them, but if my partner adds minutes and clusters to the belays because he thinks he needs it, then I have a problem with it. Keep it simple, stupid. KISS.

The PAS hate always confused me, as it certainly does NO HARM whatsoever. It is simply a matter of preference. People used to tie their own daisy chains too, but those have since mostly gone away since the advent of sewn pockets. Will a home-made daisy still work? Absolutely. Would I call a factory made daisy to be "worthless", "useless", or "a sign of a newb aid climber"? Probably not.

I use a PAS for sport climbing, as it is a super easy way to quickly anchor in, clean, and rappel/lower. When I first started climbing about 10 years ago I was taught to use draws/slings etc, which worked just fine, however, you tell me: What looks cleaner and uses less gear...

This:

Or this:



When I'm clipping bolts, my PAS lives on my harness and gives me options. If I'm trad climbing I'll use slings because I'm already carrying them, but not so much if I'm sport climbing.

There have been tons of products in climbing that aren't 100% necessary, but still make life easier for a lot of us. I just don't get why the PAS has become the poster child of this phenomenon.

Carry on!

I guess I just don't see it's benefits because I don't really go sport climbing. It isn't redundant. If I'm going to use a PAS, it is two daisy chains, and that is only on walls. I use a double length runner on multi-pitch rappels, standard AMGA practice. Why use anything else? With a PAS, it doesn't matter how many bolts you clip it into. If a bolt fails, you shock load the other bolt increasing the chance of that one failing. If your connection loop or any of the loops between you and your anchor fails, the whole system fails. The likelihood of that happening is low, yes, but let's not forget Todd Skinner.

Max McKee wrote:I guess I just don't see it's benefits because I don't really go sport climbing. It isn't redundant. If I'm going to use a PAS, it is two daisy chains, and that is only on walls. I use a double length runner on multi-pitch rappels, standard AMGA practice. Why use anything else? With a PAS, it doesn't matter how many bolts you clip it into. If a bolt fails, you shock load the other bolt increasing the chance of that one failing. If your connection loop or any of the loops between you and your anchor fails, the whole system fails. The likelihood of that happening is low, yes, but let's not forget Todd Skinner.

PAS is girth hitched to both my top and bottom loops together. I would then rappel off of those, not the belay loop.

Jeff0 wrote: PAS is girth hitched to both my top and bottom loops together. I would then rappel off of those, not the belay loop.

A PAS is basically just a chain of belay loops, so I still don't see the difference other than adding multiple points of failure.

Max McKee wrote: A PAS is basically just a chain of belay loops, so I still don't see the difference other than adding multiple points of failure.

How is that different than a knotted double sling?

csproul wrote: How is that different than a knotted double sling?

The knot makes it redundant. If either strands of the webbing breaks, it still holds.

csproul wrote:As for the usefulness of the PAS, personal preference. I'm not sure why people get so riled up about other people using them. I choose not to, but I don't care one bit if you choose to use one. I'd rather you not use it as your primary connection to an anchor if belaying me, but that's about it. As for the OP, I think that is a fine use of a PAS. It is essentially what I do with a daisy while aid climbing.

+1
My objection is not to the PAS itself, but to the advocates that insist it's the best thing to use all the time in every situation (or worse, when beginner experts insist it's the only thing to use). A related objection is when it causes someone to make a simple task a lot more complex and time consuming. Sure, that can happen with anything, but it seems that noobs+PAS often = clusterfck.

A huge warning sign is when someone says it makes anchoring foolproof.

Max McKee wrote: The knot makes it redundant. If either strands of the webbing breaks, it still holds.

Ahh yes. True. Still kind of a very small fear in the grand scheme of things. I dont use a PAS, but I still don't see the big deal. Some people like to have a dedicated tether, doesn't affect me in the slightest. I do use daisies while aiding, and I'll admit they're kind of nice when doing lots of raps, to the point I sometimes miss them while free climbing long routes with multiple raps. Clipping into a PAS can't really be any more dangerous than clipping into a belay loop. Don't put yourself into a position to shock load it. I'd still clip twice at anchors.

Max McKee wrote: The knot makes it redundant. If either strands of the webbing breaks, it still holds.

You must be thinking of something else. Please explain to this noob how that works. If you have a loop of webbing and tie a knot in it then you have two loops. If either one of those breaks, you go down. Csproul is right.

JoeGaribay wrote: You must be thinking of something else. Please explain to this noob how that works. If you have a loop of webbing and tie a knot in it then you have two loops. If either one of those breaks, you go down. Csproul is right.

I am most definitely not thinking of something else. And I'm not quite sure I can still be considered a "noob" at this point. And yes, Csproul is right, in saying that I am right about the knot making it redundant. Think about it.

Max McKee wrote: I am most definitely not thinking of something else. And I'm not quite sure I can still be considered a "noob" at this point. And yes, Csproul is right, in saying that I am right about the knot making it redundant. Think about it.

Excuse me. I was referring to me as the noob. I'm just curious how you can make a teather, being pas with loops or a runner of webbing, redundant without creating a shock load on one side or the other. Unless you make some sort of master point girth hitched to harness with two equalized legs clipped to separate bolts. I love using a runner to extend my rap and use as a anchor point. Being redundant without the cluster would be nice but not totally concerning me.

JoeGaribay wrote: You must be thinking of something else. Please explain to this noob how that works. If you have a loop of webbing and tie a knot in it then you have two loops. If either one of those breaks, you go down. Csproul is right.

No he's mostly correct. Tie a knot in a double sling and girth it to your harness. Now, when you clip your rap device to the sling clip both loops (biner around knot). Now if either loop breaks it remains attached, potentially by one strand. This also assumes that the girth hitch remains intact if the bottom loop breaks, as it would only be loading one strand of the girth hitch. Only if the knotted portion itself breaks all the way through (not sure how that would happen) would the biner come completely detached. You are right that if it were the bottom loop that broke, you'd shock load the top. NBD in the context of a rap since there is rope in the system.

If any loop of a PAS between your harness and the rap device breaks (again, not sure how that'd happen) you'd be detached.

Does this convince me a PAS is less safe than a knotted sling? No. They are both perfectly safe and this mostly a bunch of hand waving.

csproul wrote: No he's mostly correct. Tie a knot in a double sling and girth it to your harness. Now, when you clip your rap device to the sling clip both loops (biner around knot). Now if either loop breaks it remains attached, potentially by one strand. Only if the knotted portion itself breaks all the way through (not sure how that would happen) would the biner come completely detached. If any loop of a PAS between your harness and the rap device breaks (again, not sure how that'd happen) you'd be detached. Does this convince me a PAS is less safe than a knotted sling? No.

Got it! I typically don't clip the belay biner, only a locker on the extended end. I try not to use my belay biner to clip into bolts to keep it free of burs but I could use the rope to extend that and equalize the extended portion. But again, I'm getting clustered.

Max McKee wrote:I guess I just don't see it's benefits because I don't really go sport climbing.

that pretty much explains it. it's a really nice convenience when you're sport cragging and the extra weight, space in the pac, and harness clutter aren't issues. chris sharma probably doesn't see the benefit of all that heavy metal crap you carry around and jam into cracks either, but he doesn't disparage it as useless.

Andrew G wrote: that pretty much explains it. it's a really nice convenience when you're sport cragging and the extra weight, space in the pac, and harness clutter aren't issues. chris sharma probably doesn't see the benefit of all that heavy metal crap you carry around and jam into cracks either, but he doesn't disparage it as useless.

I honestly see it as being the least useful when sport climbing, but that's me. When I sport climb, I want as little on my harness as possible. I can always use draws to clean the anchor and often just use the anchor draws themselves. I better understand it's desire in the context of routes with multiple raps. You, however, should use it however you see fit.

csproul wrote: Tie a knot in a double sling and girth it to your harness. Now, when you clip your rap device to the sling clip both loops (biner around knot). Now if either loop breaks it remains attached, potentially by one strand. This also assumes that the girth hitch remains intact if the bottom loop breaks, as it would only be loading one strand of the girth hitch. Only if the knotted portion itself breaks all the way through (not sure how that would happen) would the biner come completely detached.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it doesn't sound like you attached the 2nd loop to your harness.

I believe the correct, redundant method is as follows:

1) Girth to harness
2) Tie knot
3) clip rappel device to both loops with a locker (around the knot)
4) clip 2nd loop to belay loop with a locker.

Now you have two loops from your harness to your rappel device. If either one fails, you have a backup.

for the record, you can do the same process with a PAS, just clip two of the intermediate loops with your rappel device biner. So really, there's no advantage to using a sling vs a PAS from a redundancy perspective.