BD Alpine Start Hoody or Houdini?

Anyone used both? Looking for a light Summer windshell with light storm protection.

Primary criteria: wind resistant, breathable, good fit. Also to be used for mtn biking, hiking, bike commuting.

BD is Schoeller stretch softshell with Nanosphere.
Houdini is nylon ripstop w DWR.

backcountry.com/black-diamo…
backcountry.com/patagonia-h…

I can get them both for about the same price.

Thanks for your considered input.

I've worn both. Alpine Start is stretchy and more vapor permeable in my opinion. It's a little bulkier in terms of how tiny it compresses down.

My broken record on clothing recommendations is that the right choice is depends on what's already in your quiver. If you already own a lightweight softshell (e.g. a Ferrosi), then the Houdini is more of a diversifier to your wardrobe. I think of the Alpine Start as a slightly lighter weight Ferrosi.

If you don't already have a lightweight softshell and want this single layer to do year-round duty, then the Alpine Start is probably the better choice.

I own both. BD hands down, the Houdini doesn't even come out any more. Better touch to the fabric, better fit, and the stash pocket actually has room without needing three hands to stuff it in.

My other shell is an Arcteryx Alpha SL pullover (best damn hardshell ever IMHO!).

I definitely want something that I can also run and bike in (so super lightweight), with a slight measure of wet weather resistance.

My biggest concern about the BD is the softshell material will be too warm.

Weights:
BD - 250 grams
Houdini - 102 grams

I like the Houdini for being lightweight and amazing for fast moving times. I pair it with an R1 for more warmth in the spring (WA alpine environments).

I don't find the Houdini to be that challenging to stash, but it does take two hands. Extremely simple and I like the fit.

The alpine start won't be too warm, you throw it on and forget you're wearing it while climbing. I find it much more breathable than the current houdini. I actually overheat easily in the houdini or most of the lightweight nylon windshirts.

Have both. The BD piece is less wind resistant but more abrasion resistant. Recent Houdinis have been changed and their breathability has dropped significantly over circa 2012 models that were great. Search on Backpackinglight for details on the CFM ratings of each.

I think of the BD Alpine Light as my "continuous use" piece. Something that I might have on most of the day and ditch late when it gets too hot. (Think cool morning approaches and early shaded climbs that get warm late in the day). The Schoeller is very easy to climb in and seems to hold up well to some abuse. It also has better next-to-skin feel when you're sweaty.

The '12 Houdini I have is more my "if I need it" piece. It packs smaller and is brought along for rain showers and cold afternoon winds etc. The material isn't as stretchy so not quite as nice to climb in IMO. I love it for summer climbing up high when things get chilly and windy late in the day in the shade. Throw it on at the belays etc.

So BD = Alpine Starts (ha!) and more active pursuits.
Houdini = Afternoon or Uh Oh moments.

Also check out the Arcteryx Squamish option. BPL has newer models with better CFM ratings. I'd consider this vs a new Houdini.

Given your other planned options I might lean more towards the BD APL as it breathes a lot more which will be nice for the higher output activities. I ride in my BD APL often.

Solid advice. Thanks all.

in my opinion the OR ferrosi is awesome.

It packs into a pocket very well as a super compact stuff sack for days that get warm in the afternoon. It's very breathable, helmet capable hood, the right amount of pockets and fits great.

I also use it when biking around town. Hasn't even began to show wear yet.

backcountry.com/outdoor-res…

The Ferrosi is the best designed and most functional mid-weight (3 season) softshell ever made. Unfortunately, it's way too heavy for what I'm looking for (Summer use). Thanks!

MauryB wrote:Houdini ... stash pocket ... needing three hands to stuff it in.

There was one or two years of production (~2013-2014?) where they were making the stash pocket way too small on the Houdini. Earlier production runs did not have this problem; I think that they have fixed this issue in the most recent production runs as well. Mine is from a pre-2012 run and it is pretty easy to get the jacket into the pocket. I like the snug fit of the stash pocket, since it minimizes bulk when hanging the jacket from you harness.

As Mattm noted, the Alpine Start would be better as a jacket that you expect to wear for most of the day, while the Houdini is better (i.e. more compact) as an emergency piece that spends most of its time clipped to your harness.

What I like most about the Houdini is that it is so small and so light that I never have to think too hard about whether to bring it or not on a long route. When in doubt, I clip it to the back of the harness and forget about it (until it gets cold/windy/stormy). A slightly heavier/bulkier item (like the Alpine Start) would cause me to think a bit harder and only bring it if I think I really need it.

Warm Summer afternoon on top of Cathedral Peak and the wind picks up: BD or Houdini?
Early morning cool MTB ride over a LS cap 1 top: BD or Houdini?
Getting caught in a late afternoon Summer drizzle: BD or Houdini?

Sorry, if I'm over analyzing.

Zirkel wrote:Warm Summer afternoon on top of Cathedral Peak and the wind picks up: BD or Houdini? Early morning cool MTB ride over a LS cap 1 top: BD or Houdini? Getting caught in a late afternoon Summer drizzle: BD or Houdini? Sorry, if I'm over analyzing.

Houdini for all 3

Thanks, Austin. Nailed it.

Zirkel wrote:Warm Summer afternoon on top of Cathedral Peak and the wind picks up: BD or Houdini?

Houdini / Squamish

Zirkel wrote:Early morning cool MTB ride over a LS cap 1 top: BD or Houdini?

BD

Zirkel wrote:Getting caught in a late afternoon Summer drizzle: BD or Houdini? Sorry, if I'm over analyzing.

Surprisingly (to me at least) the BD has better HH rating than the Houdini or Squapish so for straight drizzle, BD Alpine Start.

Here's a quote from BPL guru Nisley - I own both, have field experience with both, and test results for both. The current Arcteryx Squamish and 2012 and earlier Houdinis perform almost identically. In contrast, the BD Alpine start has approximately double the air permeability of the Squamish. It is thus design biased towards an athlete who is primarily trying to dump heat and keep external moisture off (362 mm H2O) as apposed to a typical backpacker's balancing act between adding warmth and passing internal moisture out at 7 MET. The fit is also quite different with the Alpine Start optimized for a slender build and the Squamish optimized for a broad shouldered athletic build. The Alpine Start is a couple of oz heavier than the Squamish in size XL.

Note I don't 100% agree with the fit part. I'm 6', 43in Chest, 190 with 35" sleeves and LOVE the fit of my Large BD. It's very similar, IMO, to the Arcteryx but the BD is a bit more fitted. Both are great.

Why houdini when you can go Squamish? In Europe i can get the arc'teryx for cheaper than the patagonia, so for me it's a no brainer. As nice as something like the alpine start, ferrosi or pshison FL are I struggle to see there purpose in a traditional or a pertex pile esque layering system, I see them being a nice layer to have on a long multi pitch but that's about it, maybe it will work better in both systems, will have to wait and see.

BD shouldn't be making clothing.

JPVallone wrote:BD shouldn't be making clothing.

100% disagree. Every BD piece I've purchased (Save one fleece that was off in sizing) has been top notch across the board. I now look at BD first before moving on to the other top tier stuff.

I would recommend the arcteryx psiphon

I just checked out around online at it appears (according to arc'teryx) that the pshison is less breathable than the squamish, but more water resistant and more wind resistant, this seems odd and very counter intuitive and according to outdoor gear lab the squamish did better than pertex quantum in rain and from my experience with pertex quantum it's been plenty water resistant with only the seams ever letting water in. Similar results with wind resistance. How does a Stretch woven fabric have higher water and wind resistance than a densely woven pertex esque fabric? It doesn't make sense to me.
Edit: Also with my experience of Fortius 1.0 wind cuts right through it at around 50mph, pertex has been tested to around 100mph letting through only tiny amounts of wind, it sounds like they are just trying to get people to buy their new products.

This is a very useful thread. I have the Alpine Houdini and like it, but the breathability isn't all that great. Also, I have to admit that I have given BD short shrift when it comes to their clothing line. Sounds like I need to "open up my mind" a bit!