Let's talk about Big Bros

I've never placed or cleaned any Big Bros, and never tried setting one as practice. They don't seem to common, in fact I can't remember seeing any on another climbers harness ever. But some people must use them.

As far as big gear goes for OWs, I've got a set of super cams and a C4 #5 and #6, so whilst I'm interested in Big Bros, I'm not looking at them instead of cams. I did read an article recently about setting them periodically under the cam you're bumping up, which seems pretty smart. I'm also interested in their application in chimneys where even the #6 is of no use (the wife and I both enjoy chimney climbing).

So if you've had experience with them, good or bad, I'm interested to hear about it. As well as size comparisons to the bigger cams.

Check out Valley Giants as an alternative that is easy to set. valleygiant.com/

I've only ever needed the size up from #6 camalot (blue I think). Seem bomber enough when placed well and it's easy to tell. Still not sure if I'd consider falling on one a real option. They're good for keeping ropes out of cracks also.

Roy, the Valley Giants just seem too bulky. I'm sure they're great but I can't imagine being happy with anything bigger than a #6 dangling from my waist while I'm grunting my way up a chimney.

Don, how easy do you feel it is to set the Big Bros? Do you think they're hard to place securely?

Where are you planning to use them? They won't hold in a flare.

If it's a pure splitter or you can find where two irregularities line up to parallel, they work. You can definitely get a knee or ass in and place them one handed. More likely you'll place them two handed in a more secure stuffed position.

Craig Luebben is the only person I've ever talked to who actually fell on them and he did on purpose. They held up just fine. I have yanked on them and stood on them, as long as your weight is on the rope side they are fine.

I think their best use is at the lip of a roof to keep the rope from going inside.

It's like a lowe ball or RURP, not on your daily rack but pretty important when you need them.

how about the golden #5 huge size? it seems like at this size you're protecting a chimney which most "real climbers" would just run out since you cant really fall out of it anyway.

Thanks, Jake. That's reassuring to know.

High - As far as the 'where', I remember reading something about them being useful on a couple routes at Lumpy (can't remember which ones). Plus a few things at Voo.

Now there's two reasons I'm interested in them. One is to place below a big cam I'm bumping repeatedly, for those times I'm working on a fairly continuously sized wide crack, just so I have something else between me and the ground. I guess that'd be the smaller ones, around #4 - #6 sort of size. The other is to protect sections through chimneys that would otherwise be quite run out. I realize a lot of chimneys can offer placements inside them with small gear, but I also know it's not always the case.

I didn't figure they'd work in flaring cracks, but it's good to know for sure that they don't.

All rock is probably not created equal with big bros. Something really crystalline, e.g. vedauwoo granite, is probably in general going to hold a big bro much better than some of the much smoother rock varieties. Because like a cam, it depends on friction for the active mode to start ramping. Maybe even more so than cams.

Mathias wrote:Thanks, Jake. That's reassuring to know. High - As far as the 'where', I remember reading something about them being useful on a couple routes at Lumpy (can't remember which ones). Plus a few things at Voo. Now there's two reasons I'm interested in them. One is to place below a big cam I'm bumping repeatedly, for those times I'm working on a fairly continuously sized wide crack, just so I have something else between me and the ground. I guess that'd be the smaller ones, around #4 - #6 sort of size. The other is to protect sections through chimneys that would otherwise be quite run out. I realize a lot of chimneys can offer placements inside them with small gear, but I also know it's not always the case. I didn't figure they'd work in flaring cracks, but it's good to know for sure that they don't.

When I did Crack of Fear, I didn't use them but they'd for sure work on the first pitch and probably the second. They'd fall right out of Georges Tree.

At Vedauwoo they do work on almost all of the namesake OW's. Squat is the one Craig said he would jump off to test. Worm drive, Big Pink, the Torpedo Tubes, Horns Mother, Mainstreet, Finally, Hammer (or is it Tool or Die), and Orbital Ridge all have sections where they'd fit. I am not too sure about Mother #1, Strawberry Jam, or Wide and Ugly. I'm certain they would not work on Trip Master.

All that said, they are rarely needed. They keep routes like Candlestick or Right Parallel Space from being R-Rated but those are so easy it's hard to worry too much about.

I had two, a green and blue and sold them years ago. I can't say I've even noticed their absence on my rack. The 9" VG I do miss occasionally. I never placed the 12, I'm glad it's gone.

Mathias wrote:Roy, the Valley Giants just seem too bulky. I'm sure they're great but I can't imagine being happy with anything bigger than a #6 dangling from my waist while I'm grunting my way up a chimney. Don, how easy do you feel it is to set the Big Bros? Do you think they're hard to place securely?

They're not too bad really. You can place them one handed after a little practice. Just push the side with the lock ring up against the wall, push the button to release it, line the other end up and screw it down. Very rarely are cracks perfectly uniform with no irregularities so I always find a divot to place it in or a lump that fits inside the side holes. Once you start screwing the lock ring down you can wiggle it back and forth to set it well.

They have they're place for sure but any bigger of a crack than blue and you can fit inside and feel pretty secure.

I have placed big bros on several occasions. I dont always love them but as I'm climbing more OW in the Voo and other areas with sandstone OW's I'm finding a need for the green and a blue big bros. Doubles in these sizes can be nice depending on the length and width of the climb. Takes practice to place and they aren't always confidence inspiring but when your run out, tired, and they are the only thing that fits essentially protecting an individual from an unnecessarily large fall I'm glad to have them. They are also nice for rigging a climb. For example setting a TR on Big Pink I have seen them used for redirecting the masterpoint in the correct direction of pull. Basically the equalized cordellette was draped over the big bro tube creating a better direction of pull on the master point in relation to how the #6's were placed. I have also figured out big bros if correctly placed can stop the rope from pulling your cams deeper into the crack. The Bro creates a stopping point or a rail for the rope to slide over in the crack instead of the rope going deep into the crack pulling cams with it into the fissure or getting stuck between cam lobes and the rock. I think Big Bros are a necessary piece for a wide climbers rack. They have a lot of logistical applications that basic cams cannot fulfill.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I've been to the Voo only twice but I've love it. My wife has been once and also really enjoyed it. So the chances are we'll be climbing there quite a bit more in the future.

As for them working at Lumpy, I can imagine they'd be a terrible idea on George's Tree (I've seconded the first pitch). But maybe they'd be good for Wolf's Tooth, for example.

Now to look into sizing.

Mathias wrote:Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been to the Voo only twice but I've love it. My wife has been once and also really enjoyed it. So the chances are we'll be climbing there quite a bit more in the future. As for them working at Lumpy, I can imagine they'd be a terrible idea on George's Tree (I've seconded the first pitch). But maybe they'd be good for Wolf's Tooth, for example. Now to look into sizing.

I am not sure if there are a lot of climbs that you'd be missing out on by not having a big bro. What seems to work pretty good for me in Vedauwoo is to have a BD #6 and a WC #6 (the large green dude). The WC doesn't tend to walk as much so you can place the WC below you and the BD above you. For doing the equivalent thing with a big bro instead of the WC #6 seems like more trouble than it's worth. I don't know if you accidentally kick a big bro if it will come out, but at least the WC #6 doesn't budge that much when I've accidentally kicked it.

I think we should call them "crack pipes."

I own and have used all four sizes which are currently available. They scare the shit out of me. You know the feeling when you sink a perfect nut, you know the "i could drop a car on that one"; that is the inverse of a good big bro spot. I NEVER feel like "ahhhhh, safe".
That said, if you play wide, the choices are few. They are great for set piece whilst you move your #9 up. OK, your #6. (I don't own a #9).
Parallel is critical. Having two hands to place helps, a lot. And they make good anchors when you are building in wide.
The smaller ones feel less insecure than the largest. I went out and two roped tested them. You know, when you have a top rope back up, and fake lead on the other rope. NOT on double ropes, but 2 singles. Bounced, short falls. They move, they wiggle, if not set well, as with any piece, they fail.
As i said, they scare the shit out of me, and i still own them.

Look, yeah, they are big and bulky on your rack (VGs), but they place quickly when you are in a spot that few mere mortals tred, aka an off width or chimney. So if you go to these places why not bring the fast setting beast that covers your ass? Besides, if you can set it early, then your poor second has to haul it up!

Roy Suggett wrote: Besides, if you can set it early, then your poor second has to haul it up!

+1! Always my feel-osofee. Use the heavy first.

I placed a blue one once in not quite perfect splitter. I got a few feet above it... Then heard a loud "CHUNK" sound. I looked down to see it spinning down the rope like a stripper down a pole! I would have decked had I fallen. If you find a good splitter I think they work just fine. The good parts about OW is that you usually have to push yourself out of the damn thing in order to fall.

Patrick Shyvers wrote:All rock is probably not created equal with big bros. Something really crystalline, e.g. vedauwoo granite, is probably in general going to hold a big bro much better than some of the much smoother rock varieties. Because like a cam, it depends on friction for the active mode to start ramping. Maybe even more so than cams.

No, this is wrong. Big bros rely on camming action primarily, but not like a cam. Friction is not a primary factor big bros. Friction is important for cams though.

I borrowed one once for this route:

mountainproject.com/v/hardi…

I got myself up maybe 1-2 body length's above the last piton pro I had, and tried to place it. It's quite possible I was just not good enough at the challenge, but I sure as shit could not find a placement that felt like it gave me any more confidence than just sucking it up and dealing with the runout would.

The sides of the spot I was placing it in were textured granite, and it seemed like the inconsistencies just made it so that tweaking the bro the tiniest bit would make it insecure again. I backed off.

A friend said he went back with a valley giant, it felt good, and he sent.

Anyway, that experience left me less than impressed. I think that now, given more experience, I could climb that pitch, but the two best options for such a situation are: up your mental game (or just get more experience TRing or following someone on similar pitches first), or deal with the bulk of a VG.

Greg D wrote:Friction is not a primary factor big bros.

I guess magic must be the primary factor then?