Question about proper usage of Gunks Bolts

Hi,

Was out climbing today at the Gunks. Came across some new bolt setups I've not seen before.

Pics are attached.

Can anyone shed some light on what they think the expected use is here? I mean, top rings for clipping in probably. But do you rap off the bottom rings? Go right through the last link?

If you were going to TR off these... what would you clip your lockers to?

Thanks.

J

Gunks Bolts

Gunks Bolts

From what I understand they are rappel anchors

Andrewww wrote:From what I understand they are rappel anchors

Hi,

Yes, they are intended as such. What element would you rapp off of though? The last rings in the chain or the last link?

And if you were to TR...what would you use?

J

I'm guessing you would rap off the lowest ring. Looks like it's set up so you can replace the end ring when it gets worn out (that's why the quick link is for).

As far as TRing, I try to clip into the bolt hanger if possible. Less "links" to fail. But clipping in to any point would work as long as there wasn't excessive wear.

I would rap off of the lowest rings. In a few years if they wore out and I didn't have any extras with me I would rap off of the top rings until I could replace the lower ones.

Jeff0 wrote: Hi, Yes, they are intended as such. What element would you rapp off of though? The last rings in the chain or the last link? And if you were to TR...what would you use? J

You rap off the ring. We use a similar configuration where I live. The advantage of the rings over a quicklink is the rings will turn, distributing wear along a greater portion of the ring and extending the lifespan of the anchor, where the link will concentrate wear in two places, the top and bottom of the link.

Rap off the ring at the end of each chain. To TR i'd probably run the rope through the rings and then clip a biner to each chain high up and run the rope through the biners. This way you are already threaded to rap but the wear and tear is still going on your hardware.

Kind of a weird set-up with the ring bolts on top. Maybe they were already there and someone decided to equip them with chains and rings for easier replacement?

Anyway, as said previously, rap off of the lowest rings.

For top-roping, clip your own biners or draws in such a way as they are not loaded over an edge and then run the rope through them so as to not put the wear on the anchor. In the top picture, the chains are to extend the anchor over the edge, so you should clip into the chain, lower quick link, or lower ring. For the lower picture, the chain is really unnecessary (they could have just used two quick links and a ring on each bolt) so you can go ahead and clip directly into the bolt hangers. (If there's not enough room for a biner on the bolt hanger, you can clip into the upper quick links.)

Those look to be Fixe 50kn SS rap rings so I'd say use them for that if you're rapping and I'd personally probably put a sling through them with opposing biners for TR, but it does look more like just a rap point.

Some rap stations at the gunks get tons of traffic so I wouldn't stay long if I Tr there

The proliferation of bolted rappel anchors in the Gunks is frustrating at best. Many have been installed directly in line with very popular routes leading to people toproping improperly directly through the bottom rings making rappelling near impossible.

Ex-local Gunks climber here. Now I live 1.5 hours away and dont climb there as often.

I was always told and have followed that at the Gunks it is unethical to be lowered. Always rappel off the rings to descend.

As far as top roping. If someone is leading they have the right away out here and sharing anchors is very common in the gunks. So you might be toproping an anchor where someone else might be rappelling through. It happens...

Do not set up a top rope off of the rap rings. They are only there for rapping. I have put locking biners on the links attached to the rings. Any links on the chain itself going up to the bolts and even on the bolts themselves.

As far as I know about Gunks anchor ethics you dont lower off the anchors here. When you setup topropes you do it off your own anchor/draws never fixed hardware and always leave rap rings open. Never setup topropes or anchors on the rap rings.

So yes, you rap off the bottom rings.

If you are going to TR setup on anything but the rap rings.

All weirdness aside, I like how they could figure out how to camo the chains(good job), but couldn't figure out how to camo the rings, links, hangers or bolts (amateur job).

Dustin B wrote:All weirdness aside, I like how they could figure out how to camo the chains(good job), but couldn't figure out how to camo the rings, links, hangers or bolts (amateur job).

Chain isn't camo'd, it's plated steel and has weathered a bit taking on that color. Pretty typical. The upper rings and upper bolts are SS and thus, appear more polished. Fixe SS (upper bolts and rings) tends to be more of a matte finish and usually isn't too bad. The lower rings and both sets of QLs appear to be either very polished plated steel or the earlier generation of SS from Climb Tech that had a mirror like finish. CT took user input and has updated their SS finish to be much more of a matte finish like Fixe.

In both the pictured anchors, you thread your rope through the LOWER set of rings.

Will differ to locals as to whether ANY of these anchors are intended for TRing, I suspect not.

If you WERE to TR using those anchors setups, I'd personally do it one of two ways:

1) Clip QDs or longer slings into the UPPER Fixe rings and TR.

2) Thread the rope through the lower rings and then use miners or QDs in the chain to keep the TR wear off the rings.

Here are the official intentions with regard to those anchors, one of which is on Betty and the other on Jackie. I have bolded portions that address the question at hand. You can find this statement on the GCC website. I have left incorrect grammar and usage as-is.

"After a very lengthy review and approval process with the Mohonk Preserve’s Land Stewardship Committee and the Bolting Sub-Committee, five Trapps climbs were removed of all tree anchors and installed with fixed rappel anchors. These rappel anchors were primarily chosen because of climber safety, high traffic causing slope erosion with dangerous rock filled gullies developing, and the potential loss of trees from soil compaction. Placement of these fixed rappel anchors are not for climber convenience but rather to regenerate the ecosystem, to help avoid rappelling on top of other climbers, to lessen the use of fixed anchors for top-roping, and to maintain the legacy of traditional climbing.

So not only are the anchors not intended for top roping, but the people placing them made at least some effort to locate them in a way that would not be convenient or appropriate for top-roping. So rather than trying to figure out the best system for top-roping off such anchors, how about using them as intended and forgetting about top-roping altogether?

I know, fat chance.

rgold wrote:So rather than trying to figure out the best system for top-roping off such anchors, how about using them as intended and forgetting about top-roping altogether? I know, fat chance.

I've appreciated the responses thus far, all of them.

I would note that the language recently copied states "lessen" not "eradicate."

On a quiet Tuesday, with no other parties wanting to get on route and perhaps no one around for commentary, I see no harm in rigging up a set of draws on these anchors and TR'ing through your own gear. Thus the point of my OP was to question about how to do that most effectively.

Regards,

J

You asked for the "expected use" and now you know.

Jeff0 wrote: I would note that the language recently copied states "lessen" not "eradicate."

What that means is that by moving the rappel anchor to a location less suited for top-roping, the activity of top-roping from more conveniently-placed anchors will be lessened. In other words, the hoped-for "lessening" effect comes from people not top-roping from the new anchors.

Naturally, I said "hoped-for" for a reason.

Jeff0 wrote:I see no harm in rigging up a set of draws on these anchors and TR'ing through your own gear.

You might not see harm. But others who are probably more aware and more experienced than you do see harm. Access to and from the top of cliff and the anchors featured is clearly under stress from excess use.

Trad area. Trad ethics. These are clearly intended for descent not for top roping.

A second question I'll pose today. Sort of related.

So yesterday I saw many using these rappel stations as anchors to belay the leader on the second pitch. How do we feel about that? Is that unethical as well?

Jeff0 wrote:A second question I'll pose today. Sort of related. So yesterday I saw many using these rappel stations as anchors to belay the leader on the second pitch. How do we feel about that? Is that unethical as well?

It isn't a matter of climbing ethics at all. The Preserve made errors in placing some rap anchors with the result that rappellers are routed down on top of ascending climbers. Naturally, these poorly situated anchors are convenient for belaying and are universally used for that---there is no reason why anyone would labor to rig a gear belay anchor when there's a pair of good bolts well-positioned for the job.

While not a matter of climbing ethics, there is such a thing as consideration and common decency, which are sometimes in short supply, either because the climbers in question are clueless, or oblivious, or enjoy a sense of entitlement that ignores the fact that the resource is shared with others. When it comes to belaying on bolted rap anchors, common decency requires that those bottom rap rings be left free for rappellers. A belay anchor is easily rigged on the hangers themselves.

Good point. Perhaps the same will happen with the rap anchors purposely placed to be inappropriate for top-roping.