Belay devices: worthwhile studies into which are safer?

So I've been having an argument with a friend about whether some belay devices are actually safer than others, and I've been utterly unable to find any useful research on the subject - loads of anecdotal rubbish, lots of individual accident reports, but nothing that strikes me as being worth a damn beyond that. Can anyone point me towards any research with a decent sample size, good methodology, and worthwhile results? Someone must have done this, right?

Cheers!

Stephen

Stephen Minchin wrote:So I've been having an argument with a friend about whether some belay devices are actually safer than others, and I've been utterly unable to find any useful research on the subject - loads of anecdotal rubbish, lots of individual accident reports, but nothing that strikes me as being worth a damn beyond that. Can anyone point me towards any research with a decent sample size, good methodology, and worthwhile results? Someone must have done this, right? Cheers! Stephen

It's not the device that is more or less safe than other devices - it's all about the belayer.

No such study has been done because there is no worthwhile data, nor any worthwhile information to be learned from such a study.

All belay devices are safe if used properly and within the manufacturer's recommended parameters. Period.

Ahh anecdotal rubbish. Don't forget the limitations of the age old discussion of "device vs user failure."In all seriousness I can't point you in the right direction so don't bother reading further. But, wouldn't the anecdotal rubbish in this case be the worthwhile information that said study could be based off of? If you've heard plenty on the subject already why not start compiling some data on your own. Or even better, contact DMM. They seem to have some of the best scientific product testing videos of slings, biners, ropes, belay set-ups etc available. It may be that a proposal of the study on safety between all the available device could go well. Also I honestly don't know what its called, but isn't there an ongoing mountaineering accident report going on? Maybe a review of the data could indite certain information on the different devices used during differing accidents. Just my 2 cents. Also I've never dropped anyone, or had anyone get injured during a fall using the only 2 devices I've used, act type and a grigri.

whats an act?

Jon H wrote:All belay devices are safe if used properly and within the manufacturer's recommended parameters. Period.

And any device can be deadly when used improperly.

Most (maybe all?) "belaying accidents" are user error. Wrong hand gripping the rope, pulling Grigri lever open, taking brake hand off etc.

Gunkiemike wrote: pulling Grigri lever open, taking brake hand off etc.

GriGris kill. Seriously, stop leaving the quick feed thumb on the lever.

your hips is the safest.

yer gonna die

Jon H wrote:No such study has been done because there is no worthwhile data, nor any worthwhile information to be learned from such a study. All belay devices are safe if used properly and within the manufacturer's recommended parameters. Period.

Yeah, but this is what the argument is really all about – in that he argues that a Grigri or a Megajul will (possibly) catch the rope if you screw up or are hurt or whatever. An ATC is perfectly safe if used within the recommended parameters, for sure, but are those parameters necessarily narrower than those of a Grigri? (i.e. an ATC definitely won't catch the climber if you're unconscious, but other devices might.) My argument is that this may be true, but do those devices have other failure modes which, on balance, actually make them less safe overall?

I have no idea, but someone with access to a decent amount of data could look at accident rates vs belay device, accounting for experience, other factors, etc etc. Maybe nothing would be found, which is fine. I'm just sick of people saying "my mate knows someone who got dropped by a belayer using an ATC and it wouldn't have happened if they'd been using a Grigri", because that seems silly to me – but I know that my scepticism seems equally silly to them, and the fact that neither of us has any data doesn't help to resolve this.

Jon H wrote:No such study has been done because there is no worthwhile data, nor any worthwhile information to be learned from such a study. All belay devices are safe if used properly and within the manufacturer's recommended parameters. Period.

The DAV have done extensive studies on the relative accident rates of various belay devices.
Your second sentence is also wrong.

Then I stand corrected. Sounds like the studies OP is looking for are sitting with the DAV. Hope he can read German.

If they can then here´s where they should start:-
google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=…(unfallursachen%2520und%2520risiken%2520beim%2520hallenklettern).pdf&usg=AFQjCNGFFEs3jEpnOGu3fM7b4vJAf2FdFA

google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=…

And so on, there´s loads from them. If you don´t understand German you´ve problems.

Danke!

I challenge anyone to find an incident in which a climber has decked with the belayer using a mega jul.

Don Ferris wrote:I challenge anyone to find an incident in which a climber has decked with the belayer using a mega jul.

Do you think that is due to the inherent safety of the device or that there are likely far fewer in use than say ATCs and Gri-Gris?

Still no actual data from me. I'm curious, what kind of numbers are you looking for? The only thing I could think of doing is taking a large survey of the belay devices used and normalizing the number of accidents attributed to belayer error by belay device. This is going to be problematic though as most of the time a broken ankle is not going to be reported in a way that we can access.

Now my anecdotal evidence:

I can't think of any reason you could use to claim ATCs are the safest except that complacency with devices causes user error. I like my megajul; however, with really thin ropes it definitely provides a lot less help than with a big 10.5. I also think its harder to forget you are defeating the device (like when people just rest their thumb on the grigri). Once you get comfortable with it you can lead belay identically to how you lead belay with an ATC.

It takes practice but once you use it a lot, you can act like you're using a simple ATC and get some of the added safety of an assisted catch like a grigri. At the gym I go to frequently most of the time when I see someone with cringe inducing belay technique, it's usually with a grigri.

If you haven't tried it yet, I highly recommend google.com. Or, more specifically:
mountainproject.com/v/11123…

You might notice that, predictably, GriGris have about half of the accident rate of tube style devices (ATCs). Anyone who has used both can see that this should be obvious. People reach the conclusion that "GriGris kill" based upon anecdotal evidence of news stories involving GriGri failures because they don't realize that Grigri accidents ARE news because they are so comparably rare. This is why gyms are offered lower insurance rates if they mandate GriGris or hang them from every toprope; believe me, if anyone is on top of accident statistics, it's the insurance agency...

If the data is out there do not translate it, leave it alone and where it is. If you bring it to the attention of the climbing community, tomorrow someone out there on the web who does not know me or climb with me will be telling me I have to use this certain belay device and insinuating all sorts of horrible things about me if I don't.

What you're asking is impossible to quantify. There are way too many variables to come up with "one belay device to rule them all"

Certain failure modes happen more often with a certain size rope (i.e. mammut smart with thin ropes). Climbing at the red river gorge carries a lower risk of rockfall than a chossy alpine route.

Instead of trying to come to a discreet answer, learn the pros and cons of each device and determine what best meets your needs for a particular day out. Sometimes you may want an assisted braking device, other times an ATC.

• Disclaimer: 60% of the time belay devices will kill you 100% of the time, the only true path to Nirvana is the hip belay.

The nasty thing about the DAV numbers?

ONLY the grigri has statistical significance .... If you work out the math the smart, click up and megajul are LESS safe than the good ole munter ...

Perhaps experienced folks use munter and grigris ... And everyone elses ATCs and other assisted devices

Theres alot of things you cant account for with a limited sample size and lack of breakdowns

Its ironic that folks are now asking about which belay devices make em safe, not the SKILLS and HABITS that would do so

;)

bearbreeder wrote:The nasty thing about the DAV numbers? ONLY the grigri has statistical significance .... If you work out the math the smart, click up and megajul are LESS safe than the good ole munter ... Perhaps experienced folks use munter and grigris ... And everyone elses ATCs and other assisted devices Theres alot of things you cant account for with a limited sample size and lack of breakdowns Its ironic that folks are now asking about which belay devices make em safe, not the SKILLS and HABITS that would do so ;)

Deep in the background the DAV did loads of work on how the stats would be collected and intepreted but it´s not the sort of stuff people want to read.
As you say it´s not just the percentage of users per accident, you need to identify whether device X is safer in the hands of experts or whether Y is safer in less capable hands. There are devices out there that are good enough in the hands of novices but no expert would ever use because of other failings and others safe as houses in expert hands which are death on a stick to novices.
The reason the Smart, MJ (and a few others not in that chart) come out badly is almost certainly a naiive belief that they are safer leading to their use by less than competent belayers. The GriGri comes out well because it is the safest device available and the HMS because only skilled people still use it or the teaching of it´s use was better (and of course it´s actually better than most tube´s anyway.