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Equalette Not Redundant

Original Post
Eric Moss · · Exton, PA · Joined Apr 2016 · Points: 95

The equalette is not always redundant. Consider a two-point equalette. If the material of the equalette breaks within one of the limiter knots (where the material is most stressed), then that limiter knot becomes void. When this break occurs, the break-side of the equalette will be pulled away from its attachment and the now void limiter knot will not prevent the master point from falling.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

Overhand knots have been pulled to failure by people who do cordage tests. Where do they break?

TheCentralScrutinizer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 5

There are no perfect men.

shredward · · SLC · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 5

I regularly inspect my cord, so I am confident it will not break under normal belay loads. The redundancy is to protects against the failure of a bolt, whose history is almost always unknown.

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

Has this failure ever happened in the field? No? Then it isn't worth stressing about. It is unlikely that you'll be the first person that failure happens to. If accidents start happening because of this failure mode, then pay attention. Until then, it is just a lab-geek theoretical failure mode. Instead of spending your mental energy worring about things that are extremely unlikely to kill you, direct it at those things which kill people all the time. Tie a knot in the end of your rope, check your knot, vet your partners carefully, place bomber gear, etc. These are the things that keep you alive, not science-project anchor setups.

Eric Moss · · Exton, PA · Joined Apr 2016 · Points: 95
Gunkiemike wrote:Overhand knots have been pulled to failure by people who do cordage tests. Where do they break?
Ropes fail at the knot or close to it. Either way, the limiter knot is voided.

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the equalette, but if your standard of redundancy is that that the failure of any part of the system does not result in complete failure, then the equalette is not always redundant.

To overcome this, you can tie a second set of overhand knots outside the limiter knots.
Nick Sweeney · · Spokane, WA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 969

Harnesses are not redundant, neither are ropes... unless you really want to carry an insane amount of equipment, you need to trust some of your gear.

Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

My bet is your thread is going to go about as well as mine, on basically the same topic:

mountainproject.com/v/knot-…

Long story short, theoretically possible, but generally unlikely, and I can't find any video of one being pulled to failure. Jim Titt's pulls of a sliding X with limit knots (an equalette) on slings in my tread indicated both strands failed before the knot fails. So basically you're looking at a chopped sling/cord situation from rockfall, etc.

If you don't like that small chance, use something stronger, or more redundant, like a quad.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Not a fan of limiter knots (although I use them from time to time). When something else fails, such as a nut placement, their role is to survive under a load configuration that is not a best practice for the overhand knot.

The above is one of the reasons I no longer use the equalette.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Brian L. wrote:...or more redundant...
This term should be retired. Something is either redundant or it isn't - something can't be "more redundant" than something else.
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

What happens if the belay loop on your partner's harness breaks? How often do you inspect your buddy's belay loop, or your own for that matter? There's no redundancy there, unless they're mad strong and can catch a fall with their bare hands alone if their belay loop failed.

I see your point. It just doesn't seem like a big deal because unless you're going to tie an equalette and then continue using it without inspection until it eventually fails, it's not worth the consideration. But if you really think it's a weakness, do something different.

Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90
Marc801 wrote: This term should be retired. Something is either redundant or it isn't - something can't be "more redundant" than something else.
I dunno, there's levels of redundancy here. It all depends on what failure you're looking at, and your comfort zone.

Like others have said, you only use one rope. An event that shreds your anchor cord may hit your rope instead. So many don't worry about that actual anchor material failing (which they can inspect and deem usable prior to climbing), and worry more about things they can't influence, like rock quality, or bolt quality.
TheCentralScrutinizer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 5

Troll?
Joined to make statement?
Anyone ever watched Petzl's (might have been another company?) drop tests? 1.5m drop on sling breaks sling, or biner, or both. Ever leave the belay and forget to unclip your P.A.S./daisy? Major bummer.
You're not gunna die if you're not serene.
Really.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

I like to build my anchors so that they can survive Godzilla attacks.

McHull · · Catoctin Mt · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 260

Statistically you're far more likely to die driving to said belay station than from equallete failure,

Brian E · · Western North Carolina · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 348

I don't even know what an equalette is, but several have commented that the belay loop isn't redundant either. This is actually not true. I don't know the technical terms, but basically a belay loop is made from two pieces of webbing that are sewn together. Thus, redundant. That fact makes me feel good about life. :)

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

To be honest, you're about 5.8731 million times more likely to get dropped by your belayer then hurt by a failed equalette. As safety priorities go, this doesn't really even make the list of serious concerns and is up there with worrying about your rope breaking.

Use one or don't, know how to rig it if you do, then move on and stay focused on things that are way more likely to hurt you.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Eric Moss wrote: Ropes fail at the knot or close to it.


Correct, the cord breaks at the entrance to the knot. The knot itself stays intact on the other strand.

Eric Moss wrote: Either way, the limiter knot is voided.


That's where we disagree.
Mike Kaserman · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 0
Marc801 wrote: This term should be retired. Something is either redundant or it isn't - something can't be "more redundant" than something else.
Yeah, you're right, but it's at the cost of trying to popularize the term 'redundanter' or referring to the 'redundacity'of a system.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Be Esperanza wrote:I don't even know what an equalette is, but several have commented that the belay loop isn't redundant either. This is actually not true. I don't know the technical terms, but basically a belay loop is made from two pieces of webbing that are sewn together. Thus, redundant. That fact makes me feel good about life. :)
By that logic every sling is redundant because it is made up of a a bunch of different threads.

If you understand what the word redundant means you would know that your belay loop is NOT redundant. (If you choose to use it.)
Sam Keller · · Mallorca, ES · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

YER GUNNA DIE!!!!!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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