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Plated steel vs. Stainless steel?

bus driver · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 1,516

I like the diamond in the rough kind of places and encounter a variety of rock types.
I prefer 3/8" stud bolts to 5 piece in hard rock. They are torque controlled. They are easy to inspect the condition of the threaded parts and they won't tighten to manufacturers spec if the rock is not hard enough. If they don't tighten you know they are bad and will often just spin right out leaving the original hole ready to be upsized. Just use a deep socket and basically tighten it right out of the hole. With a 5 piece you don't know what's going on with the threads and if it doesn't tighten up, all the mechanics are out of view. Often they just get left as a spinner without any idea what's going on in the hole.

Indian creek is much harder than some (most) of the other "stone" in Utah so best practice there isn't necessarily best on some of the delightful pink, gold, white and grey butter soft rock elsewhere. Length and girth are important in soft rock 1/2"X4.5" is good if you're power drilling. Any longer and you need a longer bit than standard. The threaded ones let you see how far they tighten. 5 piece just spins in the hole. If they come out too much, you know there's a cavity and to replace it with a glue in.

safeclimbing.org/education/…

Also, save the drilled angles. They're not any cheaper and not as bomber as a mechanical bolt.

Glue ins are among the best options for soft rock and likely existing tower routes shoul be equipped with them but it's unlikely any fa parties on obscure soft formations are lugging glue and worrying about curing times.

Thanks to everyone for the cool routes and the fresh bolts. And thanks for going out and climbing some dudes new route you heard about that's not in the book.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Highlander wrote:That's a little harsh John. I personally use 1/2" plated steel power bolts in Indian Creek for first ascents and for replacing anchors. I have pulled plated steel bolts in the creek that are 30 years old and show very little corrosion and were just fine with the exception of not being a modern bolt. The main issue with popular routes in Indian Creek is they get repeatedly top roped causing the hole to enlarge over time causing the bolt to loosen over time. I agree that glue ins would be great replacements for routes that receive lots traffic. However in most cases I don't find it very practical to use glue ins and will continue to use plated steel 1/2X4" bolts in Indian Creek and won't lose any sleep over it.
Did you go to the Future of Fixed Anchor Conference two weeks ago? That's a rhetorical question since you obviously aren't up on, and don't care about, the latest info.

Regarding corrosion, since you don't believe me, you can reference the UIAA's corrosion standard which does NOT approve PS bolts for use anywhere outside. mountainproject.com/v/11139…

You can also contact the Access Fund, who is endorsing that standard and is strongly opposed to the use of plated steel bolts outside anywhere in the US.


You say you don't find glue-ins practical. Well, how many have you placed?

If you don't care to conform to the standards set by the UIAA and AF, well, no one can force you to. Do you climb on a rope that doesn't meet UIAA specs? Then why do you think the bolts the rope is attached to are less important? Is it because you walk away after the first ascent and then your bolts are someone else's problem?
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Arguing SS vs PS in Utah sandstone is counterproductive to the entire bolt replacement initiative worldwide. John B, all of your impassioned and insulting arguments make you sound like an arrogant blowhard. It makes the bolt replacement initiatives sound myopic and self serving. It even makes me less likely to contribute money if I think my money is being spent on overkill bolts.

Sure stainless steel is better but it's advantages just aren't realized in Southern Utah. This is akin to arguing whether Patagonia is better than Colombia (of course it is) to go to the mall on a chilly day (it doesn't matter).

Throw up more insults and personal credentials. I'm sure that'll help.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

I have placed over 500 stainless steel bolts including glue ins in climbing areas where it is appropriate. I prefer the PS 1/2X4" power bolts in areas like Indian Creek, it is exceeds the strength standards set by the UIAA and these bolts will likely outlive me. I do not walk away from my first ascents and go back and repeat some them frequently, being cheap is not how I decide on what anchor material to use, I use what I think is appropriate in terms or a long lasting safe anchor for the area I am bolting.

Did not make it to conference I was likely out climbing or replacing some manky anchors and making routes safe for others to enjoy.

John Byrnes wrote: Did you go to the Future of Fixed Anchor Conference two weeks ago? That's a rhetorical question since you obviously aren't up on, and don't care about, the latest info. Regarding corrosion, since you don't believe me, you can reference the UIAA's corrosion standard which does NOT approve PS bolts for use anywhere outside. mountainproject.com/v/11139… You can also contact the Access Fund, who is endorsing that standard and is strongly opposed to the use of plated steel bolts outside anywhere in the US. You say you don't find glue-ins practical. Well, how many have you placed? If you don't care to conform to the standards set by the UIAA and AF, well, no one can force you to. Do you climb on a rope that doesn't meet UIAA specs? Then why do you think the bolts the rope is attached to are less important? Is it because you walk away after the first ascent and then your bolts are someone else's problem?
Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46
John Byrnes wrote: Nonsense. There is no data to support your claim. There IS data here on MP, about bolts corroding in desert climates (re: Red Rock).
Hey John,

what is your career in? I do Corrosion/Erosion Inspection, Non destructive testing and Asset Integrity for some of the worlds largest companies. I'm not talking about your life on a bolt. I am talking hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of lives on the line. I actually was talking to a metallurgist (Masters in the subject with 10+ years experience) after I saw this and we both came to the same agreements.

A. A P/S bolt and S/S hanger subject to little humidity will not have a corrosion rate that is anymore noticeable for two reasons.

1. The area is so small where they meet that it won't amplify like it would on a large surface area
2. It require humidity to be in contact with the joining area for a good portion of time for the reaction to take place on a substantial level

B. P/S in most dry climates won't reach a End of life any faster than S/S.

Maybe you should reread the article in Climbing that you probably learned you opinion to force down someones throat. But I think the Energy sector has spent a bit more money proving anchors are suitable than Outdoor Recreation has so I would trust their opinion more.

with that being said, Companies use general statements for many reasons as user error is high when it comes to uneducated people making decision that could end in a potential lawsuit (Look at Petzl replacing the Shunt as a rope access safety backup with something that is more idiot proof ). That doesn't mean there is substantial evidence that proves things are dangerous when used properly.
Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46

and before you go on and on about how I do not actually deal with "climbing" bolts I have replaced and used bolts for anchors in numerous areas ranging from rock rappelling anchors, Safety netting on buildings/bridges (Into concrete,stone,brick) and in about 10 different other scenarios.

Tom Rangitsch · · Lander, Wy · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,699
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Arguing SS vs PS in Utah sandstone is counterproductive to the entire bolt replacement initiative worldwide. John B, all of your impassioned and insulting arguments make you sound like an arrogant blowhard. It makes the bolt replacement initiatives sound myopic and self serving. It even makes me less likely to contribute money if I think my money is being spent on overkill bolts. Sure stainless steel is better but it's advantages just aren't realized in Southern Utah. This is akin to arguing whether Patagonia is better than Colombia (of course it is) to go to the mall on a chilly day (it doesn't matter). Throw up more insults and personal credentials. I'm sure that'll help.
I lived in Colombia and the malls there really rock it on a chilly day. I have been to Argentine Patagonia and the malls there, specifically in Bariloche, suck.
Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 8,196

While I greatly appreciate all those people putting in long, tough hours with rebolting projects, and I hope they can get more credit for it, I also hope climbing doesn't become a recreation in which all new routes must officially meet some sort of (ever-changing) "standard" lest the poor explorer-developer gets ostracized.

Surely we can follow the free-spirit mentality of traditional climbing and allow some variety of opinion on matters of things like fixed pro on a new ascent, at least in some of our wilder areas.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
PosiDave wrote: Hey John, what is your career in? I do Corrosion/Erosion Inspection, Non destructive testing and Asset Integrity for some of the worlds largest companies. I'm not talking about your life on a bolt. I am talking hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of lives on the line. I actually was talking to a metallurgist (Masters in the subject with 10+ years experience) after I saw this and we both came to the same agreements. A. A P/S bolt and S/S hanger subject to little humidity will not have a corrosion rate that is anymore noticeable for two reasons. 1. The area is so small where they meet that it won't amplify like it would on a large surface area 2. It require humidity to be in contact with the joining area for a good portion of time for the reaction to take place on a substantial level B. P/S in most dry climates won't reach a End of life any faster than S/S. Maybe you should reread the article in Climbing that you probably learned you opinion to force down someones throat. But I think the Energy sector has spent a bit more money proving anchors are suitable than Outdoor Recreation has so I would trust their opinion more. with that being said, Companies use general statements for many reasons as user error is high when it comes to uneducated people making decision that could end in a potential lawsuit (Look at Petzl replacing the Shunt as a rope access safety backup with something that is more idiot proof ). That doesn't mean there is substantial evidence that proves things are dangerous when used properly.
Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying here (apologies if that's the case), but it sure sounds like you are stating that there isn't a big difference in anchor life between P/S and SS in dry environments. And just to get the term "dry" defined, I would assert that NM, CA, CO, WY etc. are "dry" climates -- perhaps not the driest, but dry -- and places like NH, NC, NY are "wet" climates.

Stating that P/S won't corrode any faster in a dry environment is just not true. And I don't care who you talked to. California is, for the most part, a "dry" climate and for sure there are P/S bolts that were placed not so long ago that are definitely already corroded. In a climate like that, SS will most certainly extend the time before the anchor starts to corrode. Perhaps be a little careful about the details of your statements lest young people in the community (e.g. Eli) who are already predisposed to use crappy hardware get the idea that someone that appears to really know something (i.e. you) told them that P/S is just as good as SS. Its already an uphill battle to get folks to use quality SS hardware whenever possible without seemingly knowledgable folks telling people that P/S is A-OK.

Jon Nelson wrote:While I greatly appreciate all those people putting in long, tough hours with rebolting projects, and I hope they can get more credit for it, I also hope climbing doesn't become a recreation in which all new routes must officially meet some sort of (ever-changing) "standard" lest the poor explorer-developer gets ostracized. Surely we can follow the free-spirit mentality of traditional climbing and allow some variety of opinion on matters of things like fixed pro on a new ascent, at least in some of our wilder areas.
I agree with your sentiment here Jon, but I think that it is not too much to ask that if you are doing a lot of developing, then you should use high quality SS hardware (i.e. no more P/S hardware store junk shows). If you can afford to put up 25 new routes with P/S crap hardware, then instead put up 15-20 routes and use good hardware. That isn't too much to ask I think.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
John Byrnes wrote: As I said, you seem pretty sure of yourself (ie. arrogant), but that's pretty normal for a teenager who thinks he knows it all. In another ten years you'll (hopefully) realize that you didn't, not even close. I started studying bolt corrosion in 1999 when you were two years old. Now somehow, you know more than me? And BTW, I was climbing in the desert before you were born. The crux of the matter is what you consider "fine", when you say "PS bolts are often fine". A 19-year-old will think a 20-year-lifetime is fine. An older climber will be looking for a service life measured in centuries. Why? Because the older climber has lots of experience with corroded and worn bolts, and has replaced many hundreds of corroded bolts. How many bolts have you replaced Eli? Once you've replaced a hundred bolts, your opinion will carry some weight. Plated steel bolts do last longer in the desert, a lot longer than in the Red River, but they still corrode and will need to be replaced. Are YOU signing up to replace them? Are you sending money to the ASCA? Or is that someone else's problem? The other issue, which in the desert often trumps corrosion, is the "wear-out" of the hole. An expansion bolt will need to be replaced, hopefully with a glue-in in the same hole. Have you signed up for that Eli? So for both reasons, PS expansion bolts are NOT appropriate for the desert or anywhere else. Anyone who places them should be required to REPLACE them before the hole wears out or they corrode. But most selfish bolters just walk away after the first ascent. Kinda like you Eli.
1 Care to share this evidence that says that PS bolts are bad in dry desert climates such as Southern Utah? Or would you rather just spout more inflammatory BS?

2 I am a steward of the local crags I frequent to the best of my ability. This means trail work, picking up trash, and picking up a portion of the cost for hardware maintenance and replacement, and replacing fixed hardware that I am capable of replacing safely (lowering biners, chains, quicklinks, etc.)

3 Have you ever tried bolting on lead from a stance using glue-ins? If you have, would you care to share some of your experiences?
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
PosiDave wrote: Hey John, what is your career in? I do Corrosion/Erosion Inspection, Non destructive testing and Asset Integrity for some of the worlds largest companies. I'm not talking about your life on a bolt. I am talking hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of lives on the line. I actually was talking to a metallurgist (Masters in the subject with 10+ years experience) after I saw this and we both came to the same agreements.


Your job gives you a better perspective than most people. That's good. But unfortunately climbing bolts have corrosion problems that do not occur, and/or proceed faster, than in man-made structures. The chemistry and environment is significantly different in many ways.

Structures have, almost universally, redundancy and in many cases, regular periodic inspection by an expert (you) with specialized tools and training. Climbing bolts have nothing in common with that scenario.

PosiDave wrote:A. A P/S bolt and S/S hanger subject to little humidity will not have a corrosion rate that is anymore noticeable for two reasons.


I don't know where you got the idea that I was worried about galvanic corrosion. Several times I have posted on MP that mixing SS and PS will generally not cause galvanic corrosion. Plated steel just rusts when the Zn is consumed. Take a look at the photos posted by Jonathon Knight and the surrounding discussion.

mountainproject.com/v/the-b…

PosiDave wrote:B. P/S in most dry climates won't reach a End of life any faster than S/S.
The UIAA and AF disagree with you. They have lots of experience and data about plated bolts in rock all around the world. And take a look at several posts on MP where plated/galvanized bolts, hangers and chains are rusting in Red Rock, which isn't all that different from the Utah desert.

PosiDave wrote:Maybe you should reread the article in Climbing that you probably learned you opinion to force down someones throat.
You mean the one from March 2014, for which I was interviewed as an expert?

climbing.com/places/bracwin/

PosiDave wrote:But I think the Energy sector has spent a bit more money proving anchors are suitable than Outdoor Recreation has so I would trust their opinion more.
If that were true, then ambient temperature Stress Corrosion Cracking in S300 stainless would have been well documented prior to CSU's (see above) analysis of a failed stainless hanger in 1998, Brett Fuller's analysis in 1999 and before Angele Sjong's publication in 2008 (ASM Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention). Many metalurgists, unaware of these findings still believe the outdated textbooks: that SCC can't occur in S300 under 50C.

But SCC isn't a problem in the desert. But plated steel still rusts, starting in the hole where it can't be seen. Theories abound but I think it has to do with thermal conductivity and temperature gradients attracting and holding moisture.

In conclusion, if you still don't believe me, go check the UIAA website. Call the Access Fund and tell THEM they're trying to force this down your throat.
Rob WardenSpaceLizard · · las Vegans, the cosmic void · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 130

I would like to ask that the Laurels that those deriding me and my practices be provided. I have replaced more bolts this year than i have placed on my own routes. I use cobra bolts because of the attractive; cost, strength, and ease of removal.

all of my routes when they need it will be SS. I chose bolts intentionally that are easy to remove and do a hole for hole replacement. I chose bolts that are strong and deep enough for the stone. I chose routes that I thought would be good. not all of them are.

HOW THE FUCK AM I ON TRIAL HERE?

do you people spouting off about SS do what you are ripping into me and eli for?
if you climbed in Zion, you have clipped my replacement bolts, you have anchored into my chain, you have benefited from my time here even if you never climb any of my routes.

put up or shut up. if you want SS to be the norm then you can pay me for SS. until then its my money, my bolts, my routes, and you don't have to climb them

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

+1

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:I would like to ask that the Laurels that those deriding me and my practices be provided. I have replaced more bolts this year than i have placed on my own routes. I use cobra bolts because of the attractive; cost, strength, and ease of removal. all of my routes when they need it will be SS. I chose bolts intentionally that are easy to remove and do a hole for hole replacement. I chose bolts that are strong and deep enough for the stone. I chose routes that I thought would be good. not all of them are. HOW THE FUCK AM I ON TRIAL HERE? do you people spouting off about SS do what you are ripping into me and eli for? if you climbed in Zion, you have clipped my replacement bolts, you have anchored into my chain, you have benefited from my time here even if you never climb any of my routes. put up or shut up. if you want SS to be the norm then you can pay me for SS. until then its my money, my bolts, my routes, and you don't have to climb them
Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46
J. Albers wrote: Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying here (apologies if that's the case), but it sure sounds like you are stating that there isn't a big difference in anchor life between P/S and SS in dry environments. And just to get the term "dry" defined, I would assert that NM, CA, CO, WY etc. are "dry" climates -- perhaps not the driest, but dry -- and places like NH, NC, NY are "wet" climates. Stating that P/S won't corrode any faster in a dry environment is just not true. And I don't care who you talked to. California is, for the most part, a "dry" climate and for sure there are P/S bolts that were placed not so long ago that are definitely already corroded. In a climate like that, SS will most certainly extend the time before the anchor starts to corrode. Perhaps be a little careful about the details of your statements lest young people in the community (e.g. Eli) who are already predisposed to use crappy hardware get the idea that someone that appears to really know something (i.e. you) told them that P/S is just as good as SS. Its already an uphill battle to get folks to use quality SS hardware whenever possible without seemingly knowledgable folks telling people that P/S is A-OK. I agree with your sentiment here Jon, but I think that it is not too much to ask that if you are doing a lot of developing, then you should use high quality SS hardware (i.e. no more P/S hardware store junk shows). If you can afford to put up 25 new routes with P/S crap hardware, then instead put up 15-20 routes and use good hardware. That isn't too much to ask I think.
I originally actually wrote a large explanation that included the varying difference for areas that cause corrosion in dry climates. (Rock type, acidity, salt, etc).

But we were talking about dry desert sandstone and not California or other areas that have other causes to why P/S doesn't last.

Also I wouldn't classify almost any entire state as "dry" since there are areas in just about every state I can think of that get some rain/snow (Yosemite/Wasatch) vs (Moab/Jtee)
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:I would like to ask that the Laurels that those deriding me and my practices be provided. I have replaced more bolts this year than i have placed on my own routes. I use cobra bolts because of the attractive; cost, strength, and ease of removal. all of my routes when they need it will be SS. I chose bolts intentionally that are easy to remove and do a hole for hole replacement. I chose bolts that are strong and deep enough for the stone. I chose routes that I thought would be good. not all of them are. HOW THE FUCK AM I ON TRIAL HERE? do you people spouting off about SS do what you are ripping into me and eli for? if you climbed in Zion, you have clipped my replacement bolts, you have anchored into my chain, you have benefited from my time here even if you never climb any of my routes. put up or shut up. if you want SS to be the norm then you can pay me for SS. until then its my money, my bolts, my routes, and you don't have to climb them
I hear what you are saying Rob. If you are half the steward that you seem to be, then most of us with a practical head on our shoulders would offer you a 'thanks' and beer. That said, you should be a little careful about the whole "my route, so its my right to do whatever I want" attitude. Because after all, you are putting routes up on public land that belongs to all of us, and when you put up a route, that does in some sense deprive others from putting up a similar route in the same location, but with better hardware. Because really, after you are gone the route is still there and now its the community's responsibility to deal with whatever you left, good or bad. I'm certainly not trying to rag on you here, so please don't take it as such (I am guessing that some of your post was just exasperation at being dogged hard after having done a lot of work for the community, which I can imagine being annoying). Cheers.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
PosiDave wrote: Companies use general statements for many reasons as user error is high when it comes to uneducated people making decision that could end in a potential lawsuit (Look at Petzl replacing the Shunt as a rope access safety backup with something that is more idiot proof ). That doesn't mean there is substantial evidence that proves things are dangerous when used properly.
Exactly the same with residential building codes, high wind/earthquake proofing codes are not needed in half of the places requiring them. Of course the industry selling these products work hard for their products to be included in local codes so they make more $$$$.
Stephen Felker · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 552
J. Albers wrote:...you should be a little careful about the whole "my route, so its my right to do whatever I want" attitude. Because after all, you are putting routes up on public land that belongs to all of us, and the when you put up a route, that does in some sense deprive others from putting up a similar route in the same location, but with better hardware. Because really, after you are gone the route is still there and now its the community's responsibility to deal with whatever you left, good or bad.
Well said. This is how I feel about the "good enough" ethic in general.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
J. Albers wrote:... Because really, after you are gone the route is still there and now it's the community's responsibility to deal with whatever you left, good or bad.
You have perfectly expressed the problem. Thanks.

The AF is kicking around the idea of a subsidized nation-wide, on-line source that would sell Stainless bolts to new-routers for about the same price as Plated Steel.

If this actually comes to fruition, then we would have the AF providing for new routes, and the ASCA providing for existing routes.

One thing to remember is that FUNDING for both organizations ultimately comes from YOU THE CLIMBER, when you buy gear. And it's always cheaper to do it right the first time, rather than doing it over later.
M Hanna · · Seattle, WA · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 5

Howdy folks

I think the challenge to address here as a user group is that the definition of "right " is a predictably moving target with many many variables including environmental conditions, locations, materials science, and consensus perspective of both short and long term objectives.

As a long time developer and route fixer upper guy I have seen many iterations of right. I have used the entire spectrum of button heads to 5/8 glue ins. For me at this point the the most important feature is removeability. Pretending in a mystical forever installation is silly.

Perhaps it is less than useful to describe fellow climbers as criminally negligent in these matters. Seems a bit overbearing and out of context.

My two cents...

Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 8,196
M Hanna wrote:Howdy folks I think the challenge to address here as a user group is that the definition of "right " is a predictably moving target with many many variables including environmental conditions, locations, materials science, and consensus perspective of both short and long term objectives. As a long time developer and route fixer upper guy I have seen many iterations of right. I have used the entire spectrum of button heads to 5/8 glue ins. For me at this point the the most important feature is removeability. Pretending in a mystical forever installation is silly. Perhaps it is less than useful to describe fellow climbers as criminally negligent in these matters. Seems a bit overbearing and out of context. My two cents...
Right on Mark.
Removeability should probably be considered more.

And thanks for all your developing & maintenance work.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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