Plated steel vs. Stainless steel?

T Roper wrote:Maybe aiding but not repeated free climbing falls. You fall on stoppers in S Utah it usually blows out the rock.

And you think that an equivalent sized cam wouldn't do the same? I have whipped on both stoppers and equivalent sized cams in softish rock (not as soft as S Utah desert but still choss by some standards) in the exact same spot. The left indentations in the rock whereas the stopper was just a PITA to remove

eli poss wrote: How many of those on the SS bandwagon actually climb in the desert?

Geez Eli, you're pretty sure of yourself at age 19. Are you an expert in bolt corrosion? Metallurgy?

How many bad bolts have you replaced? Why don't you sign-up for replacing bad bolts in your local desert? How about two full weekends a year for the rest of your life. Sound good? Oh, and you have to pay for the new bolts too. And buy a drill, bits, brushes, static rope, ascenders, etc. So set aside about $2000 from your college fund.

There's a reason, actually many reasons, that the UIAA and the Access Fund are on the SS bandwagon. They are banning plated bolts EVERYWHERE outdoors.

eli poss wrote:Not to mention that the hole will often wear out long before the bolt corrodes in the soft desert sandstone.

If an expansion bolt causes the hole to "wear out", then it shouldn't have been used in the first place. Placing bolts that are sure to injure or kill another climber is truly criminal, and anyone who does so is a total asshole.

John Wilder wrote: but these days I'm strictly using Wave bolts for re-bolting work.

I'm in agreement about using glue-ins. But can you give feedback on the Wave bolts in soft sandstone?

My "feeling", not having placed one, is that any bolt you have to hammer-in has a good possibility of fracturing the rock within the hole, or at the rim. Sounds like they're okay in Red Rock, but softer sandstone?

John Byrnes wrote: I'm in agreement about using glue-ins. But can you give feedback on the Wave bolts in soft sandstone? My "feeling", not having placed one, is that any bolt you have to hammer-in has a good possibility of fracturing the rock within the hole, or at the rim. Sounds like they're okay in Red Rock, but softer sandstone?

John, having experience placing hammer-ins in softer sandstone I can tell you that they certainly don't fracture the rock. All they do is groove out the soft sandstone a bit. The real problem here is that this causes the sand from the grooved out portion to be left in the previously cleaned hole, so in reality, it is better to wallow out the hole a bit so that you don't have to hammer in the bolt as much so that you can have a cleaner hole for the glue to bond with.

kennoyce wrote: John, having experience placing hammer-ins in softer sandstone I can tell you that they certainly don't fracture the rock. All they do is groove out the soft sandstone a bit. The real problem here is that this causes the sand from the grooved out portion to be left in the previously cleaned hole, so in reality, it is better to wallow out the hole a bit so that you don't have to hammer in the bolt as much so that you can have a cleaner hole for the glue to bond with.

Okay, that makes sense. Have you tried any other brand/style of glue-in?

Just FYI, the bolts I've been using have a "light-interference fit". What that means is that the last 1/2" of the bolt, closest to the eye, is slightly larger. It acts like a spring and you tap it with a hammer to set it, and it stays put. This would eliminate the sand-in-the-hole issue.

John Byrnes wrote: Okay, that makes sense. Have you tried any other brand/style of glue-in? Just FYI, the bolts I've been using have a "light-interference fit". What that means is that the last 1/2" of the bolt, closest to the eye, is slightly larger. It acts like a spring and you tap it with a hammer to set it, and it stays put. This would eliminate the sand-in-the-hole issue.

Yeah, the only other glue-ins I've used are just the typical fixe glue-ins. I really like the idea of the titans or the titt bolts with the fit like you describe, but titans are a bit expensive for the areas I bolt since we don't have SCC issues, and I keep debating whether I should put in a big titt bolt order or not and just haven't done it yet.

John Byrnes wrote: Geez Eli, you're pretty sure of yourself at age 19. Are you an expert in bolt corrosion? Metallurgy? How many bad bolts have you replaced? Why don't you sign-up for replacing bad bolts in your local desert? How about two full weekends a year for the rest of your life. Sound good? Oh, and you have to pay for the new bolts too. And buy a drill, bits, brushes, static rope, ascenders, etc. So set aside about $2000 from your college fund. There's a reason, actually many reasons, that the UIAA and the Access Fund are on the SS bandwagon. They are banning plated bolts EVERYWHERE outdoors. If an expansion bolt causes the hole to "wear out", then it shouldn't have been used in the first place. Placing bolts that are sure to injure or kill another climber is truly criminal, and anyone who does so is a total asshole.

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that PS bolts are often fine in extremely dry climates, or just ignorant? You, of all people, should know that the speed of corrosion varies extremely between different climates and even micro-climates.

It doesn't make sense to have a single corrosion resistance standard that applies to every single climate and rock type because different climates and rocks require different degrees of corrosion resistance for fixed hardware.

Alex Bury wrote:^^^ Dont mix metals. When the bolt gets wet in the rain, corrosion begins to take effect.

He is in the desert, it doesn't have enough humidity and rain to effect it within the lifetime of the bolt.
Anywhere else and you would want full s/s.

eli poss wrote: Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that PS bolts are often fine in extremely dry climates, or just ignorant? You, of all people, should know that the speed of corrosion varies extremely between different climates and even micro-climates. It doesn't make sense to have a single corrosion resistance standard that applies to every single climate and rock type because different climates and rocks require different degrees of corrosion resistance for fixed hardware.

I agree with you. Plated steel in dry climates with no other corrosion factors will last just as long as s/s.

eli poss wrote: Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that PS bolts are often fine in extremely dry climates, or just ignorant? You, of all people, should know that the speed of corrosion varies extremely between different climates and even micro-climates. It doesn't make sense to have a single corrosion resistance standard that applies to every single climate and rock type because different climates and rocks require different degrees of corrosion resistance for fixed hardware.

yep.

Personally it gets really tiring hearing this "it has to be SS or Ti" over and over. I support the ASCA and the access fund but to call someone reckless and ignorant for installing PS is a jerk move. If one knows the area/cliff and has any idea of what they are doing its fine for a long long time.

John Byrnes wrote: I'm in agreement about using glue-ins. But can you give feedback on the Wave bolts in soft sandstone? My "feeling", not having placed one, is that any bolt you have to hammer-in has a good possibility of fracturing the rock within the hole, or at the rim. Sounds like they're okay in Red Rock, but softer sandstone?

I would think they (well, probably most any glue in) would be just about the best option in soft sandstone. With wave bolts just drill the hole at 5/8" and then you don't have to worry about hammering anything in. You really only need to drill a 1/2" hole and tap it in if you are worried about it falling out before the glue cures. Which should only be an issue if its over hanging. Not sure why anyone would use anything else besides glue ins on soft desert sandstone (not the Red Rocks,Indian Creek, etc... highly varnished type) these days IMO.

James Hicks wrote: I would think they (well, probably most any glue in) would be just about the best option in soft sandstone. With wave bolts just drill the hole at 5/8" and then you don't have to worry about hammering anything in. You really only need to drill a 1/2" hole and tap it in if you are worried about it falling out before the glue cures. Which should only be an issue if its over hanging. Not sure why anyone would use anything else besides glue ins on soft desert sandstone (not the Red Rocks,Indian Creek, etc... highly varnished type) these days IMO.

why not 9/16? or just slam a piton in a hole?

Glued in angles? Best of both worlds hahaha!

In soft rock, I mean SOFT, the less fiddling around the better. There are so many variables here but for the route setter, it is all about moving on in relative safety and doing it quickly. You could be in aiders hanging on a dubious tricam or free climbing on moving sand. Either way, you are the first human there and are trying to establish a new climbing line. So, what ever works well, lasts, and takes the least amount of fuss will most likely be the go to bolt/hanger. Perhaps the real question should be "what" we should climb?

Roy Suggett wrote:Perhaps the real question should be "what" we should climb?

I always assume I'm gonna die from getting lowered on a rock that falls off the top of the cliff with Ti bolts in it. And yeah, I've seen boulders on the ground with old anchor bolts in it before.

C.Williams wrote:Glued in angles? Best of both worlds hahaha!

just grind some notches in it man, its all good

eli poss wrote: Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that PS bolts are often fine in extremely dry climates, or just ignorant? You, of all people, should know that the speed of corrosion varies extremely between different climates and even micro-climates.

As I said, you seem pretty sure of yourself (ie. arrogant), but that's pretty normal for a teenager who thinks he knows it all. In another ten years you'll (hopefully) realize that you didn't, not even close.

I started studying bolt corrosion in 1999 when you were two years old. Now somehow, you know more than me? And BTW, I was climbing in the desert before you were born.

The crux of the matter is what you consider "fine", when you say "PS bolts are often fine". A 19-year-old will think a 20-year-lifetime is fine. An older climber will be looking for a service life measured in centuries. Why? Because the older climber has lots of experience with corroded and worn bolts, and has replaced many hundreds of corroded bolts.

How many bolts have you replaced Eli? Once you've replaced a hundred bolts, your opinion will carry some weight.

Plated steel bolts do last longer in the desert, a lot longer than in the Red River, but they still corrode and will need to be replaced. Are YOU signing up to replace them? Are you sending money to the ASCA? Or is that someone else's problem?

The other issue, which in the desert often trumps corrosion, is the "wear-out" of the hole. An expansion bolt will need to be replaced, hopefully with a glue-in in the same hole. Have you signed up for that Eli?

So for both reasons, PS expansion bolts are NOT appropriate for the desert or anywhere else. Anyone who places them should be required to REPLACE them before the hole wears out or they corrode. But most selfish bolters just walk away after the first ascent. Kinda like you Eli.

PosiDave wrote: I agree with you. Plated steel in dry climates with no other corrosion factors will last just as long as s/s.

Nonsense.

There is no data to support your claim. There IS data here on MP, about bolts corroding in desert climates (re: Red Rock).

John Byrnes wow you sound pretty damn arrogant yourself!!

You must think you know it all hahahah

That's a little harsh John. I personally use 1/2" plated steel power bolts in Indian Creek for first ascents and for replacing anchors. I have pulled plated steel bolts in the creek that are 30 years old and show very little corrosion and were just fine with the exception of not being a modern bolt. The main issue with popular routes in Indian Creek is they get repeatedly top roped causing the hole to enlarge over time causing the bolt to loosen over time. I agree that glue ins would be great replacements for routes that receive lots traffic. However in most cases I don't find it very practical to use glue ins and will continue to use plated steel 1/2X4" bolts in Indian Creek and won't lose any sleep over it.

John Byrnes wrote: As I said, you seem pretty sure of yourself (ie. arrogant), but that's pretty normal for a teenager who thinks he knows it all. In another ten years you'll (hopefully) realize that you didn't, not even close. I started studying bolt corrosion in 1999 when you were two years old. Now somehow, you know more than me? And BTW, I was climbing in the desert before you were born. The crux of the matter is what you consider "fine", when you say "PS bolts are often fine". A 19-year-old will think a 20-year-lifetime is fine. An older climber will be looking for a service life measured in centuries. Why? Because the older climber has lots of experience with corroded and worn bolts, and has replaced many hundreds of corroded bolts. How many bolts have you replaced Eli? Once you've replaced a hundred bolts, your opinion will carry some weight. Plated steel bolts do last longer in the desert, a lot longer than in the Red River, but they still corrode and will need to be replaced. Are YOU signing up to replace them? Are you sending money to the ASCA? Or is that someone else's problem? The other issue, which in the desert often trumps corrosion, is the "wear-out" of the hole. An expansion bolt will need to be replaced, hopefully with a glue-in in the same hole. Have you signed up for that Eli? So for both reasons, PS expansion bolts are NOT appropriate for the desert or anywhere else. Anyone who places them should be required to REPLACE them before the hole wears out or they corrode. But most selfish bolters just walk away after the first ascent. Kinda like you Eli.