2:1 Haul Setup - Rate my rigging

Jackice, don't reinvent the wheel. At this point, you are simply not going to come up with an easier, faster, lighter, more efficient system than what Pete and I have developed over the past few years.
I'm on my phone and traveling right now so it's difficult for me to go look, but I'm sure I've posted a photo of my 2:1 set up. My suggestion would be to simply go out and buy exactly what I have and learn to use it.

(And as a disclaimer, I'm talking about Yosemite or places where weight is not critical. If you are going to Trango Tower or doing some big alpine wall, your requirements will be different, sorry for not catching up on the whole thread)

Still the best 2:1 instructions that I've seen.

JackIce,
Hudon is correct, don't overthink the system. The one thing you can do is make sure the pulleys you use have high efficiency such as the Petzl Minder Pulley. Stay away from cheaper pulleys that have bronze or nylon bushings. You want Sealed Ball Bearings.

You can try and dial down the weight of your system but pulleys must be efficient otherwise you waste tons of energy each time you haul.

My first experience was with my partners setup. It had two nylon sheeve pulleys, and top one melted before we had hauled the first pitch. So get good pulleys or don't bother.

With 70% efficient pulleys like most non-ball bearing pulleys you only get a 1.19:1 mechanical advantage, and a 60% net efficiency. With good pulleys (0.95 top, and 0.9 bottom) you get a 1.8:1 advantage, and a 90% net efficiency.

Another vote for just copying Hudon. My rig is pretty much the same, and my differences were mostly for what gear I had or was on sale. I do like having redundancy at the top by using two 6" slings instead of a 7mm loop. If that connection goes you are in for a world of hurt.

Also keep in mind that 7mm nylon accessory cord will stretch 4-5% under body weight. So with about 4 feet in out you lose stetch and inch or so of progress with every stroke over using Spectra. Often you are only getting 8-10" of progress, so this is signifcant. So there is a significant tradeoff for the extra longevity of Nylon vs. Spectra in this application.

THE kit.

You will not increase the efficiency of this set up to any noticeable degree without spending a few hundred dollars and adding a lot more weight.

Don't re-invent the wheel, go out and buy these exact parts and pieces and then spend some time learning how to use it.

There, okay, now that is settled, you can move on to learning other parts of the big wall game.

Thanks for the feedback. But my question was probably unclear. First I am already using "Hudon's system and second I am not trying to re invent the wheel. I simply want to know how less efficient the system would be, using the exact same pulley kit and positioning, only by running the free climbing rope (out of the Traxion) through the kit at the place of the Perlon cordelette. So following the order on the hail rope from the pig you have Pig, Weigthed haul line, Traxion, free end of haul line, bottom pulley, top pulley and down on harness.
Again, I'm not re inventing not criticizing anything, I'm already using BOTH of these system but I never dealt with huge load to notice a difference between the two (off course the Perlon cord kit has big advantage of being pre rigged which is many minutes of time saving at each belay).
All I wish is expertise on efficiency between the system (for the sake of my question let's say we, hypothetically, lost/brake all cordelette and ducting cordelette at hand (and were darn stupid not to have spare) then use my alternate system; how less efficient Is it? (Fatter rope running through each pulley, Traxion being loaded both side more friction, rope stretch vs cordelette stretch).

I used both system and couldn't see a difference with my loads, if no one experienced this before than I'll just get out and trow Rock load in my bag and figure it out by myself ;0)

jackice wrote:Thanks for the feedback. But my question was probably unclear. First I am already using "Hudon's system and second I am not trying to re invent the wheel. I simply want to know how less efficient the system would be, using the exact same pulley kit and positioning, only by running the free climbing rope (out of the Traxion) through the kit at the place of the Perlon cordelette. So following the order on the hail rope from the pig you have Pig, Weigthed haul line, Traxion, free end of haul line, bottom pulley, top pulley and down on harness. Again, I'm not re inventing not criticizing anything, I'm already using BOTH of these system but I never dealt with huge load to notice a difference between the two (off course the Perlon cord kit has big advantage of being pre rigged which is many minutes of time saving at each belay). All I wish is expertise on efficiency between the system (for the sake of my question let's say we, hypothetically, lost/brake all cordelette and ducting cordelette at hand (and were darn stupid not to have spare) then use my alternate system; how less efficient Is it? (Fatter rope running through each pulley, Traxion being loaded both side more friction, rope stretch vs cordelette stretch). I used both system and couldn't see a difference with my loads, if no one experienced this before than I'll just get out and trow Rock load in my bag and figure it out by myself ;0)

Depends on what you use for a haul line. Static rope will only stretch a couple percent under body weight, so with 4' or so n the Zee cord you are losing about a half inch of progress every stroke compared to zero stretch Spectra. Dynamic rope stretches 6-8%, so you'll lose about 1.5-2" every stroke. Is that what you were after?

Hint: The Frost draw in the original Canadian Assassin setup is a red herring, the 6 or 7 mm cord contributes far more to lost efiiciency than using a nylon sling in place of the Frost draw would. At least use 7 or 8 mm cord if you insist on Nylon. Polyester cord from New England Ropes might be be a good compromise for less stretch if you are hell bent against Spectra cord.

jackice, gotcha.

Interesting question.

I once used some regular 5 mil as my Zed cord and was dismayed at how much it stretched. I finished hauling the whole route with it so it wasn't a deal breaker, more of a soul breaker because of seeing how much more effort I had to expend for naught. Having said that, the cord stretched probably less than an inch.

At a certain point, we're getting down to hair splitting. I can't give you any accurate estimate for your hypothetical system (and good on you for thinking of a solution to a very possible problem) but can only offer that it might be a little slower and a bit less efficient. It will certainly work though, bags will get hauled, rock will be climbed, and fun will be had!

Thanks kindly. Yes progress, fun and good memories will be made!
I personally live with the bit of stretch as 7-8mm nylon cord is all I carry for all belay cord, duct cord, Z cord and spare, all the same I find more versatile and I have seen a fatigue spectra brake once at its weaker knotted point (was tied in a loop for a summer)

Ciao and out for me
Have lots of fun on the wall and drive safe back home ;0)

If people are worried about Spectra Ø5.5mm cord snapping as their ZED cord and don't want the stretch of nylon or polyester then consider a larger diameter cord/rope made of dyneema.

Canyoneering ropes made by Bluewater Ropes are Ø8mm with a technora sheath (aramind/Kevlar) and a dyneema core. The Canyon Pro DS stretches 1.4% @ 300 lbf.
bluewaterropes.com/product/…

perfection

close up

custom 'frost draw"

I love this thread and have been reading it off and on for years; you guy range from hilarious to brilliant (or both)... thanks!

TIP:

A lot of the pulleys that I've looked at and/or owned recommend minimum of 7mm rope/cord... for my Z-cord I called bluewater (love their stuff) and was able to get a 15' chunk of their 8mm canyon extreme rope (technora sheath, dyneema core)... my system is almost identical to what Mark and Skot(edit) have posted.
(pics coming soon).

Now my question:
I'm buying a new static line and I'm thinking about going with a 9mm Edelweis Speleo
edelweiss-ropes.com/product…

thoughts?

Link didn't work for some reason. Poeple will have to copy paste
this one edelweiss-ropes.com/activit…

Looks fine.

Cue thread drift into massive argument about static vs dynamic hauling lines for bigwall.

Fear not, Kevin! This is Mountain Project and not S....

Tried to convince my partner for a 2:1 for the nose. We did a 1:1 without any issues. I love my 2:1 though. Just not worth it for 100lb of hauling. We moved quick and despite it sucking down low, it worked just fine.

2:1 for 100 pounds does seem like a little bit of overkill but it's all about what makes you happy and helps you get up the route.

Mark Hudon wrote:2:1 for 100 pounds does seem like a little bit of overkill but it's all about what makes you happy and helps you get up the route.

True. Once I became proficient in 2:1 hauling I tend to use it for everythin no matter how light (within reason) it's not always about how fast you get the hauling done, sometimes you need to consider how fast you can recuperate and get back in the lead saddle once the haulings done.

I'll replace the petzl rescue(185g) with a mini(80g) before next spring.

8mm Bluewater Canyon Extreme for the Zcord
9mm static line for the haul line
upper and lower pulleys are 90%+ efficiency
I have the pro traxion for when I want to haul 1:1
instead of a frost drawn I have a 6" spectra runner doubled

Looks awesome.

A few nitpicky points,

The lower pulley doesn't take as much of the work as the upper pulley and may be able to be replaced with a less-efficient-but-lighter pulley depending upon how heavy the overall kit is.

Will get higher efficiency the thinner the cord that's travelling through the pulley so the 8mm "zed cord" can be replaced with thinner cord. I use Bluewater Titan 5.5mm cord for my setup. Thinner cord (when strong enough) will be lighter and less of a cluster and allow the kit to pack up a bit smaller.

Your Protrax doesn't really do much besides catch the line. Unless you're planning on doing 1:1 hauling later on the route and need a device that's rated for humans to weight it (like spacehauling), you can save additional weight by using a lighter progress capture pulley such as a micro or minitrax. As long as you're not spacehauling, the microtrax is plenty efficient enough for 1:1 as long as you're not a skinny guy like me or a 4 foot, 13.625 inch guy like Mark. ;-P

4 foot, 13.625 inch guy like Mark. ;-P

Dang man! Spot on!

All you are gaining with the Pro Trax is added weight. I've safetied a Micro Trax and have space hauled just fine.