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Big wall transition sequence

Original Post
Sean M · · Victor, MT · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 43

A partner and I are planning our first big wall adventures this summer. We're both reasonably experienced trad climbers with 3+ years of multi pitching each. We're very comfortable anchor building, keeping rope clean, etc.

However, I've read through Chris Mac's How to Big Wall Climb and I'm a little confused because he doesn't walk through the transition in complete detail. One question I have is when the leader fixes the climbing rope for the second to jug, is this typically done after pulling up excess rope, or leaving the extra rope for the second to deal with? He also doesn't mention specific recommended knots, so I'm guessing figure 8 on a bight?

He also doesn't go into as much detail as I'd like about the exact hauling transition either. Several times he mentions that in addition to the haul line, you need a "lower-out" line. He doesn't directly say so, but is this in case the pitch traverses, the second can gently allow the bag to reach a plumb-line with the leader, instead of a crazy pendulum? If this is the case, what does he do with the line after lowering the bag to the side? Just toss it and let the leader haul it up with the pig and to coil it? Seems like this would increase chances of snags?

Also a little confused about how climbing pendulums and lower-outs work, but I'll save that for another day.

Thanks!

Barrett Pauer · · Brevard, NC · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 775

In regards to how much line to pull up when fixing the lead line, it depends on how you plan on hauling. A space haul will require more rope than say just body hauling.

Sean M · · Victor, MT · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 43

So typically you would pull up just enough so you (the leader) has enough rope for as long of a leash as they want? Because if you pulled up all the rope you would obviously have the same flexibility, and the second would have a little less rope to manage on their way up. Just curious

Thanks

Barrett Pauer · · Brevard, NC · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 775

Correct, for example if you were going to space haul you might want a 20 foot leash, where as if you were to body haul you may just want a few feet.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

Depends. Generally I prefer to pull up just what I need, and only make exceptions if warranted. It is worth thinking about it and having an agreement with your parter before you start the pitch.

Considerations:
- Does the follower have to do any lower outs near the start? He'll need a bunch of rope for that.
- Does the pitch wander? Yarding up rope with epic rope drag sucks.
- Space hauling, or body hauling?
- Short fixing? You'll want a bunch of rope for that.
- Windy? Lots of flakes and such? It might make things easier for the follower if the leader brings up the extra.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

Regarding the lower out line, also depends.

For 95% of the time you won't need one. I have not brought one since my crazy partner dropped it by accident on my first wall. You will likely have a 60m haul line, if not longer,, and can backup the bags and retie the haul knot to get a long tail to lower out with. Most of the pitches won't need even this. Consult the topo and look at the terrain, it is usually obvious what is going on. Sometimes a swing is no big deal, say after doing P5 of the Trip, as there is nothing to hit, so a partial lower out is OK if needed. Generally if a route needs a long lower out it will be clear from the Topo or from common knowledge beta.

Look up Mark Hudon's All Things Haul Bag and see how he docks and releases his bags. There are many variations, but his setup is an excellent starting point.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

My bigwall experience is limited but here is what I've been doing so far:

As a leader, I pull up the excess rope before fixing unless there is a need for the second to use the slack for a lower-out early on the pitch. I fix the rope with a double figure eight or an 8 on a bight (backed-up).

I have a 30-40 ft 7mm cord tied to the bag for a lower out. I also use it to dock the bag with a munter-mule, and I use the munter to lower the bag when required. So far I have just let the line hang when hauling.

Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

For fixing the jugging line, use a bunny-ears figure 8. A bit stronger, more confidence inspiring, and most importantly, MUCH easier to untie. There's really no down side at all.

For a lower-out line, I do the exact same as csproul above.

YMMV - I've been climbing for a long time, but have only limited wall experience.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Please, please, please explain to me why in the world, if you are not short fixing, you would want to pull up the extra lead line (aside from the 10 or fifteen feet you might need to haul).

What does it make easier, less complicated and faster? I can't think of anything. I can only find really, really good reasons to NOT do it.

Also, this myth about needing a lower out line is something I don't understand. In all of Yosemite, on all of El Cap, where do you need more than a 70meter haul line to lower out the bags?

In all of my experience on El Cap (and that is probably more than 99% of the climbers posting here), I've needed more than a 70 exactly ONCE. (AND, I have climbed the most horizontal pitch on all of El Cap and didn't need it there).

Logan Fuzzo · · Portland, OR · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 437

If you fix the lead end, follower is planning to jug it, I would not pull up extra slack. The jugs slide up the dynamic lead rope much better once there is a significant amount of weight, so leaving that extra slack would be advantageous for your follower.

I also find that a clove hitch is much easier to untie than a figure 8 on a bite after said rope has been jugged on. I throw a back up figure 8 on a bite onto the anchor.

You are right about the pendulums for hauling. What wall are you doing? The nose has many lower outs for the pig. The salathe has basically one (the hollow flake). We found it easier to have a 5mm cord (50ft? Can't remember) for the one or two lower outs necessary for that wall. That cord can be used to tie the pig to the anchor so one can free the locking pulley/hauler for the next pitch. Minter/mule the pig to the anchor with cord, then its real easy to lower the pig out with the minter. Once pig is plumb, just toss the line and start jugging dangit! You gotta move!!

If there's a traverse for your follower on jumars, often on the trade routes there is a fixed piece specifically for lowering yourself out to plumb line. You screw over the follower if you leave gear in the middle of the traverse, so don't be that guy or the follower is gonna have to leave your gear hanging or back aid or something.

I'd suggest the lost arrow direct with Tyrolean finish as a good 1st wall, the hardest part is the approach!

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Mark Hudon wrote:Please, please, please explain to me why in the world, if you are not short fixing, you would want to pull up the extra lead line (aside from the 10 or fifteen feet you might need to haul). What does it make easier, less complicated and faster? I can't think of anything. I can only find really, really good reasons to NOT do it. Also, this myth about needing a lower out line is something I don't understand. In all of Yosemite, on all of El Cap, where do you need more than a 70meter haul line to lower out the bags? In all of my experience on El Cap (and that is probably more than 99% of the climbers posting here), I've needed more than a 70 exactly ONCE. (AND, I have climbed the most horizontal pitch on all of El Cap and didn't need it there).
Hi Mark...I won't pretend to have anywhere near the experience bigwalling that you have, but I do have some rational for your comments:

Pulling up the lead line:
I have found that it helps the second out with less extra rope management when they are jugging up terrain that catches rope and back-up loops. If there is significant risk of the rope getting hung up when the second is jugging, s/he will have to tie lots of backup knots and take the rope with them as they jug. I figure the less rope they have to deal with, the easier it will be for them. If it is steep and/or there are few rope-eating features, I am less likely I have been to pull up all the rope.

Lower out line: first, I don't have a 70m haul line, I have a 60m. Especially when I use a 70m lead line, I have found a length of docking/lower out cord to be useful. I have yet to try your suggestion of attaching the bag with a micro-trax, and since I tie the bag into the end of the rope, I haven't experimented with tying the bag in short and using the remaining lead line for lower outs and docking. It seems really simple to just leave a length of cord attached to the bag and it is already set to dock the bag and when the mule is released, it is ready to lower out if required.

As always, however, I love to hear suggestions from people like you on how to make things better.
Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Use a Micro-Trax as your haul line-haul bag tie in and you'll never have to untie a tight knot again. Additionally, it gives you a built in 2:1 AND a rope grab.

Micro-Trax attachment

Logan Fuzzo · · Portland, OR · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 437

Instead of backup knots I use a rope man directly on my belay loop for a backup. Although I don't know if that's the safest method... Or suggested... Basically Yer gonna die if you do that

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

I have only used a minitrax on the bag when I was soloing. Using an Apline Butterfly for the bag knot lets you easily retie when the leader gets close to the end of the pitch, just backup the bags with a sling while screwing around. It doesn't get you the other benefits, but I like the extra piece of mind of using a knot.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Loganator wrote:Instead of backup knots I use a rope man directly on my belay loop for a backup. Although I don't know if that's the safest method... Or suggested... Basically Yer gonna die if you do that
I sometimes use a Grigri as a backup when jugging traverses. But when there are lots of rope-easting features I tie real knots and take the rope up with me so there is not lots of rope hanging below me. In these situations, I've found it nice to have less rope and thankful when the leader pulled up as much as possible before fixing.
mucci · · sf ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 655

If you pull up all of the slack in the lead line to fix it 2 things become fubar:

1- you have to deal with extra rope at the belay, further cluster effing your space.

2- You have to tie yourself in short with 10-15ft (one anchor point) then tie off all of the slack for your 2nd to jug (second anchor point)

Let the cleaner deal with it, teaches them good rope handling technique, I like to use a yates rope bag and puddle the slack.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

csproul, noted.

If the shit is totally hitting the fan, sure, pull up the rope and bag it and avoid a potential cluster there.

BUT, so now the second arrives at the anchor and is getting ready to lead off. What do you do? Reset the anchor? The bag is hauled and it's hanging on the anchor, you are both hanging on the anchor, how easy is it now to untied the anchor and retie it at the end of the rope? And for the record, in all of my wall experience (98% Yosemite based) I have never encountered conditions where it was better to pull up the excess lead rope (although a nuking day in the Stove Legs would certainly qualify).

As far as the lower out line goes, your technique is pretty good (in fact I like it but feel mine is better :) ) but, adding the extra lower out cord, beyond what you use for your docking cord, pretty much adds up to the bulk and weight of a 70m haul line.
Also, the excess of a 70m haul line is always there, ready to go at a moments notice.

When are you in the Valley? I'd love to sit down and shoot the bull with you!

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Two thumbs up for Mucci's comment!

I love you man!

The Micro Trax has a lot of advantages, Moof, you ought to play with it a bit.

Sean M · · Victor, MT · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 43

Thanks so much for all the responses guys, very helpful and I really appreciate it!

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25
Mark Hudon wrote:Two thumbs up for Mucci's comment! I love you man! The Micro Trax has a lot of advantages, Moof, you ought to play with it a bit.
I have used it when I tried to solo a couple things. It just didn't make the cut as staying part of my kit. I probably have about 4 stones on you, and manhandling the bags is not as big a deal to me. I also bring less stuff (no porters for me, maybe when I get rich some day).

At the end of the day I am a real scaredy cat. I get warm fuzzy feelings from using a knot for the bags. I don't haul from a single bolt. I basically spend half my time on a wall imagining gear exploding and dropping my ass into the void. So I tend to overdo it with anchors, backups, redundancy, belts, and suspender as a result.

Anyway, back to planning for Excalibur in May :)
mucci · · sf ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 655

Thanks Mark, Ditto!

Hope to run into you this season sometime.

I always use a mini trax for backup on jug lines, and if needed use it separately with another rope for manhandling bags via 2:1 if necessary.

Learning different docking techniques is key, and how to move the haulbags onto another anchor with munter/mule hitches is key.

This thread turned out to be very informative, absorb it thoroughly OP.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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