Bolt/Chain etiquette

Tylerpratt wrote: If you are lowered you rely on someone else, belay loop, parabiner, and JUST the two bolts same as rapping. How isn't there less points of failure from rapping come on, don't try to be difficult.

Which is a bigger point of failure: rested belayer, or pumped to hell climber?

Magpie79 wrote: Which is a bigger point of failure: rested belayer, or pumped to hell climber?

Use a prusik...

Tylerpratt wrote: You lead and leave the draws and or rope. Second or last person to climb cleans and raps. Take out the factor of relying on someone else. We are constantly trying to minimize added points of failure. Relying on someone else to lower is one of those possible factors. Not to mention that it does wear the fixed hardware more quickly if you are lowered off it. How is this not a no brainer? The gear should be gone by the time you go to rappel... If your second falls in say The Motherlode and swings out then cant get back to the wall. Give the mofo some ascenders and bam! Problem fixed!

According to your profile, you climb decently hard, so I'm pretty surprised that you haven't come across routes that are steep enough to be impractical to clean while lowering. They are not all that uncommon. And getting a second person (or climbing the route again yourself) to re-climb the route and clean your draws is also not very practical. I sure don't want to climb my partner's route every time. Do you seriously take ascenders when you go sport climbing?

No, I don't take ascenders. Of course how things are cleaned are climb dependent.

I just am trying to keep in mind that this thread was started by someone asking about correct etiquette. I don't want him or her going out and being lowered off anchors and getting bitched at by other climbers. Its obvious that the other people here have more experience than OP.

How I learned to climb a while back was the same for sport and trad. Lead places gear/draws and gets lowered at anchor on own gear. Second climbs and cleans then slings anchor goes off belay and raps.

Granted it was a while ago and CT Gunks Dacks are my home where things tend to be a bit on the old school side.

All i'm trying to point out is that in my opinion rapping off is more safe then being lowered and overall, more ethically appropriate in my opinion.

Tylerpratt wrote: Use a prusik...

A prussik does make rappelling more safe when used correctly. A pumped and tired climber may have a lapse in judgement which can make it much safer to rely on the belayer to get him to the ground.

It has been said before and I will say it again; the safety of the climber is more important (by far) than the replacement cost of an anchor. If I climb to an anchor and find that it is too worn to lower or rappel, I will donate my own biners to the anchor. Of course, someone will probably booty them later, but I am doing that for my own safety in that case. I will never begrudge anyone making a choice that makes them feel safer.

I would love to never hear about another climber injury due to lowering/rappelling again. Let's encourage communication between partners and respect the choice with which your partner is most comfortable. I respect your opinion even though I disagree. Happy climbing!

As always, it's the people who have never replaced an anchor that advocate rapping to save wear on the anchors while those of us who actually do the work replacing anchors advocate lowering for safety, but what do I know, I haven't replaced an anchor since Friday.

Consensus of a few.

I am the local developer. As well as some close friends.

I like the meme.

Of course the safest situation is not untying.

"If biners aren't in-situ, then threading the chains while still clipped in and on belay (through the draws, fixed or not) is the next safest: because you are on belay."

You have to untie to thread the chains, whether the rope is going through an ATC or not makes no difference. It still has to be put through the chain and retied. Now, whether or not retying takes less time opposed to lowering the rope the ground is height dependent of the climb. You are only back on belay when you are done tying back in... which is the same as when you put yourself on rappel. Granted whether or not the route is cleaned at this point makes a world of difference.

"If you are concerned for wear, contribute $$$ to your local developer. and/or donate your old biners to the anchor of your choice."

If anyone here should be donating money it should be the people that are lowering off the anchors. I'm not trying to insinuate that you don't. Also, that is a great suggestion, not shooting that down either.

I prefer to control my own descent when available. If I was extremely pumped I would just chill for a moment. No big deal, take my time tie my prusik and rap. If there was biners to be clipped to be lowered off of, I would clip them inspect them, then be lowered off them. That's what they are there for. If they aren't there you will see me rapping off the chains, not being lowered off them. and 100% of the time I would be rapping through the rap rings when they are available too. I hope you don't lower off those also...

Oh yeah, and when we place bolts and or anchors where I live Ken Nichols usually comes by with a hammer and just flattens them anyway whenever he finds out about it/takes a walk out.

He has personally smashed multiple lines of ours. We know all about bolt/anchor replacement.

I actually wrote that before I read your Nichols comment.

But again, I believe that ideally a second cleans and then raps instead of threading the anchor and being lowered off the fixed hardware. Maybe i'm lost in translation here as i'm trying to balance this and work.

John Wilder wrote: Because its often at the crux, making hanging the draw difficult and if you clip the draw above the link, you're now torquing the carabiner in a less than ideal way. Honestly, outside of a really poorly bolted sport route or odd trad route with a lone bolt, there's really no reason to ever bail anyway. Stick clip your way to the chains and lower off and clean.

Believe it or not, many of us don't carry stick clips with us to the crag, and in lots of places there aren't many sticks handy...

I'm not arguing with the premise of your post (that it's poor form to leave a quick-link on a crux bolt), only that your prescribed solution often isn't realistic.

Tim Lutz wrote: If you do it right, you are always on belay. pull slack, clip to quickdraws going to anchor (NOT a gear loop). The belayer still has you on. So, even if anchors fail, the climber screws up, whatever, the bolts or gear below will save you from decking. Read the multi-page thread on the subject I posted in the last post. it isn't a consensus of few, it is everyone that climbs regularly and is willing to take advice. Or trust in your Ken Nichols CT hillbilly methods. good luck. no, I don't lower off rap rings.

I guess only us hill billys get to anchors without clip able biners. Seriously, 99% of the bolted anchors around here (gunks too) are just bolts with rap rings. If you think you guys are getting down without A) leaving gear or B) untying threading the rap rings and lowering off those you are smoking something.

Tylerpratt wrote: B) untying threading the rap rings and lowering off those you are smoking something.

You can thread the rap rings & then untie...duh. And Tim's solution works for the general case.

reboot wrote: You can thread the rap rings & then untie...duh. And Tim's solution works for the general case.

Yes, exactly if you plan to be lowered off rap rings that is just wrong. So staying on belay would be idiotic since you will be rappelling and puling the rope weighting your sling anyway.

Tylerpratt wrote:No, All i'm trying to point out is that in my opinion rapping off is more safe then being lowered and overall, more ethically appropriate in my opinion.

Nope, I hate to be the tenth one to tell you this, but your opinion is flat out wrong. It's pretty clear you should be learning from fat boy lutz and not teaching newbs. Claiming to be old school isn't really a defense for not knowing proper sport etiquette.

Plus this little gem says it all:

Sport: Leads 5.12a Follows 5.13a

LOL.

Tylerpratt wrote: Yes, exactly if you plan to be lowered off rap rings that is just wrong.

What's just wrong? That your belayer can meaningfully have you on belay the whole time while you are rethreading the rope before getting lowered?

Tylerpratt wrote:You guys talk about safety and yet you constantly weaken the anchors by lowering off them.

You talk about others constantly weaken the anchors, yet you still pull your rope after you rap (yes, even pulling a rope through the anchor weakens it). If you're really so concerned about wearing out the anchor, downclimb the route instead of rappelling!

Being lowered by a belayer off rap rings.

J Q wrote: Nope, I hate to be the tenth one to tell you this, but your opinion is flat out wrong. It's pretty clear you should be learning from fat boy lutz and not teaching newbs. Claiming to be old school isn't really a defense for not knowing proper sport etiquette. Plus this little gem says it all: Sport: Leads 5.12a Follows 5.13a LOL.

I don't think I specifically referenced sport climbing at all.

Tylerpratt wrote: I don't think I specifically referenced sport climbing at all.

Your first post in this thread quoted someone specifically talking about sport climbing.