BoCan route with dangerous block: clean, chop, or do nothing?

On balance I'd vote for removing the bolts. If you decide to trundle and need spotters let me know and I'll try to join you. Kudos for getting the nod from CDOT first.

Edit to add: I think cabling the loose blocks to the cliff would just create a false sense of security, watching the erosion of the Old Man on the Mountain at Cannon despite the State's best efforts gave me some appreciation of the reality of keeping loose rock in place.

After reading this discussion & Greg's analysis, I think it's time to trundle. Get a big ply bar or a digging bar & crowbar that red block out. Just make sure you're not underneath the yellow. Yellow could be solidly wedged in place. If it smashes bolts or hangers, then there may be drillin' to be done.

I've climbed this route a couple times and think it's fun, especially the exposure when moving around the arete, so IMO it'd be a shame to chop or terminate lower. Avoiding the loose block isn't hard if you know to do that, so if trundling, lowering or securing it aren't practical, how about just painting a big white X on it?

The route comments suggest that block has been loose from the beginning; can anybody say if it's gotten more dangerous recently?

From the comments on the route:
Dawson Botsford

Nov 17, 2015

Do not climb! Read Tom and Tony above.

I quit the climb at the crux, because I heard the rock moving on a hand jam just before you climb left to the arete. I abandoned the climb and made it home safely.

Stay off until it falls. The loose piece was even with the chains (and 15 feet left) of the route right Night Moves.

Without some cooperation from an agency that has jurisdiction in the area, I think a deliberate trundle exposes the trundlers to massive liability. If there's even a small chance that a block could take a bad bounce and land on the roadway, you'd be crazy to expose yourself to possible fiscal and criminal consequences.

Perhaps there's an agency besides CDOT - maybe BCSO, maybe Four Mile or Nederland Fire - that has authority to close the road. If memory serves, there are at least two climbers on the BCSO staff. One of those groups might even be able to mobilize a skidsteer to clear the road just in case.

I've had a lot of success bolting/splitting/lowering blocks and really prefer it in most situations, but closing 119 for the amount of time it would take to do that safely might present an extra logistical challenge.

Mike McHugh wrote:If there's even a small chance that a block could take a bad bounce and land on the roadway, you'd be crazy to expose yourself to possible fiscal and criminal consequences. Perhaps there's an agency besides CDOT - maybe BCSO, maybe Four Mile or Nederland Fire - that has authority to close the road.

+1

Spotters only address some of the risks associated with sending heavy debris onto an active roadway.

I think option B also makes sense but am happy to help spot for option A. Greg, if help is needed for any of the options, please let me know.

Alex

Not a local... but leaving the bomb to explode later, potentially killing or devastating someone's life, seems like a negligent thing to do. Seems obvious that it needs to come down. . . just a matter of doing with without liability.

It sounds like CDOT gave permission to trundle the block... so would that absolve the climbers of liability?

Alex Vidal wrote:I think option B also makes sense but am happy to help spot for option A. Greg, if help is needed for any of the options, please let me know. Alex

I'm leaning towards option B myself.
The crux block might come loose during a freeze/thaw cycle on its own. It sucks that it is right above the approach/rap gully.
The top anchor is shared by Daydreaming and Oh Boy. If that anchor stays, will climbers continue to TR the arete?

Morgan Patterson wrote:It sounds like CDOT gave permission to trundle the block... so would that absolve the climbers of liability?

Definitely not! Anyone involved in a guerrilla trundling op could be liable both civily and criminally for any personal injury or property damaged that resulted.

The blocks should definitely be pulled under contolled circumstances at some point, but it's not worth gambling with the safety of innocent passersby.

Gregger wrote: They said we could either remove the route or trundle, but that stopping traffic while we trundle isn't something they are going to do.

How is it guerrilla if they gave permission? Why would they give permission to do something that one could get civil and criminal charges for... seems pretty messed up?

It seems their assessment is that it wont hit the road and its fine for climbers to trundle. Should they be held to that assessment? Would the local news cover a story like this to put pressure on them to assist and take care of it in a safe manner?

I haven't climbed this area so I'm not voting, but it seems like the blocks present a risk to climbers approaching and possibly whilst climbing other routes. Shutting down one 2 star route doesn't seem like a big deal, but the question of the potential danger to climbers adjacent to it is worrying. I know that rockfall is an inherent risk in climbing and I don't know the state of these blocks other than the descriptions give here. But it bring about the question of how safe it would be to just leave them be even if this particular route was closed and the bolts pulled. Then again, there's probably loose blocks above a lot of popular crags.

I definitely appreciate those who are taking action to make the area safer. Thank you for doing that, guys!

Morgan Patterson wrote: How is it guerrilla if they gave permission? Why would they give permission to do something that one could get civil and criminal charges for... seems pretty messed up? It seems their assessment is that it wont hit the road and its fine for climbers to trundle. Should they be held to that assessment? Would the local news cover a story like this to put pressure on them to assist and take care of it in a safe manner?

Morgan -
My understanding is that for most of the canyon CDOT directly manages 100' from the road. They can certainly get permission to do what they want to mitigate risks uphill from that 100' line, but the idea that they can grant volunteers permission to do anything on someone else's land (Forest Service or OSMP?) is not credible. If they were to do a rock scaling operation it would follow all the rules and regs and be exclusively their personnel and equipment. Declining to get involved isn't permission or absolution.

Gregger Man wrote: I'm leaning towards option B myself. The crux block might come loose during a freeze/thaw cycle on its own. It sucks that it is right above the approach/rap gully. The top anchor is shared by Daydreaming and Oh Boy. If that anchor stays, will climbers continue to TR the arete?

Can we affix the block using a bolt/chain combination? I think I have seen this method in the past and it makes mechanical sense to me but I'm not certain if this is truly an acceptable practice.

Might be sort of an eyesore if done improperly.

I would not be comfortable drilling into either of the loosest rocks for fear that they might come loose while pounding in a bolt.
Regardless, chaining one or more blocks to the wall strikes me as a very poor practice. Keeping the rocker block on P4 of Moonlight Buttress is one thing, but this doesn't seem to fall into the same category...

Gregger Man wrote: The top anchor is shared by Daydreaming and Oh Boy. If that anchor stays, will climbers continue to TR the arete?

And I think that is a very important question that may be a game changer. I'll have to give that some more thought - it's the sort of thing whereas I'd be saying I had a disposition already, but would be watching the conversation for, an argument which might impel me to think otherwise.
And I think you've got me thinking about that and uncertain again...

Stephen Felker wrote: Definitely not! Anyone involved in a guerrilla trundling op could be liable both civily and criminally for any personal injury or property damaged that resulted. The blocks should definitely be pulled under contolled circumstances at some point, but it's not worth gambling with the safety of innocent passersby.

Rocks come down on roads in the middle of the night all the time.

If this were my local area near a busy road, I'd make sure there was a record of my stern disavowal on a popular climbing website, and that that block safely fell on its own in the middle of the night when there was no traffic on the road.

;)

Quickly looking at some online maps it looks like this is Arapahoe/Roosevelt National Forest land with a Boulder OSMP Conservation Easement. Would it make sense to reach out to OSMP for their input? I would be happy to do so if that is the consensus not that I have any direct experience with the agency.

If it were one small block I vote for the trundle, but the risk of starting a chain reaction with the other two blocks makes this more serious endeavor.

These rocks are likely to come down "soon" with or without help (ten days or ten years? Hard to say). The forces of nature don't rest. And its not just freeze thaw. High winds, heavy rain and the heat cool cycle. Rock that face the Sun can heat up 80 degrees or more in a very short period of time while the under laying rock remains cool.

Removing the rock when its dark out makes it easier to spot headlights of oncoming cars. Can we get some webbing around the block to temporarily secure it so that bolts can be added for lowering? Let me know if I can help.

In the event plan A is enacted, I am more than willing to help in any way I can. I have a HAM radio and enjoy climbing things in the dark.