Moral Delimma

LeviWalters wrote:So here is the scenario: A few months ago my climbing partner and I were climbing a multi-pitch trad route. My partner took a lead fall, injuring himself and had to bail off of my gear. He had to have surgery to fix his ankle and I have been wondering, do I ask him to split the cost of the gear or has he paid enough of a price with his injury? I have been trying to figure out if it is completely messed up for me to consider bringing it up or not.

How much is your friendship worth? Most of my climbing partners are worth at least a few biners and some cams... If not why do you climb with them?

If he offers to pay for it, then he is a class act. If not, then I wouldn't even bother bringing it up.

Yeah, I was in the same camp as most of you guys, which is why I haven't said anything in the laSt 2 months to him. I was just wondering if it had happened to anyone else and what their experience was. Thanks for the input

Yeah, seems silly to be fretting over a couple pieces of gear. If he said your hard catch caused his injured leg would you pay half?

Ok, I never said that I cared about the gear or money more than my friends well being or was going to say anything at all. I'm obviously very thankful he came out of it unharmed and I was the one who had to piggyback him down a 3 mile approach. His mother also works in a hospital, so his medical bills were well taken care of by their insurence. We are both just college students thay have just been climbing together for years and have split the price of all gas, food, and gear for every trip and I was wondering if it was standard to split it in this case as he brought up paying him for the gas last week. I haven't said anything to him about it and wouldnt, I just didn't know if this had happened before.

You can't get what you don't ask for. Have a calm and polite conversation with your friend. If you guys are tight I would imagine you two will come up with something.

Edit: Forget about some of the replies. Some people here are just rude :)

What kinda gear we talkin here? I'm assuming more than a nut if you're bringing it up?

James Sledd wrote:He's paid enough. If he's a nice guy, maybe he'll buy you a replacement cam. But an injury and surgery are both painful and expensive. If I were in your partner's situation and you asked me to pay, I might, but our partnership would be dissolved. As soon as I tie into a rope with someone, I assume a "we're in this together" mentality.

"were in this together, but its my partners gear therefore he pays for any cost associated with climbing"

How can you be "in it together" and when something breaks be like "awe damn dude sucks for you" haha!

In my opinion is it more then just to ask for at least half. It was his decision to put himself in the place he did to get hurt. We all make our own choices that have their own consequences. Why is whipping and breaking an ankle opposed to whipping and being fine any different. I't was the climbers decision to push himself on your gear. So the climber should replace it or pay for half.

If I was climbing with someone and they broke a piece or lost it. I would replace it. If it wasn't your partners cam or nut or XX piece then it would have been your own and you would have had to replace it anyway!

Honestly if someone broke a piece of my gear and refused to pay for at least half of it that's the last time they will use my gear. I learned who and who not to share my toys with a long time ago...

And if you lose a friend because of said situation and all you did was politely ask for half or replacement. Then good F&^king riddance! Who needs shitty friends like that!

I can't believe you haven't posted links to a crowd-funding site to cover your partners medical bills yet!

And maybe he can post one for your abandoned gear.

Should probably have one to fund your next climbing trip too...

Levi,

To answer your question: "Yes. It has happened before." I was climbing in Tahquitz on my buddy's rack. I blew a move and jacked up my ankle badly enough to need to hobble out. He tried to make the move, as well, and fell. Left a cam behind and hiked out. Now, I figure he was super generous to let me use his rack so I didn't have to fly out with my own crap. I also figure that I was contributory to the cam getting left behind-- if I hand't jacked my ankle, he might have been able to work the move longer and gotten past the crux or figured a way to retreat leaving less gear. So, on our way back to Long Beach, I asked him to stop by an REI, told him to select a cam of his choice, and bought it for him. He didn't ask; in fact, he was quite clear it wasn't necessary. I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back; it's just what happened. I felt responsible, so I responded like I would have appreciated him responding if our positions had been reversed-- just the Golden Rule, in my way of thinking. I know, on the other hand, that he didn't expect anything from me and that, if we had zoomed right by REI that night, he wouldn't have held it against me in the least. Key is that, if you like your partner, let your partner's own conscience be his guide and let your conscience guide your own response if you ever find yourself in the same place.

Cheers.

Thanks Jonny, good advice.

I broke my ankle in the Black Canyon last fall. We didn't have to leave any gear, but I was happy to buy my partner dinner and beer, since I could not have gotten out of there without him. You piggy-backed your friend on a 3-mile return? If he was a classy guy, he should buy you dinner at least.

Edit to add: However, if you have to ask for it, and nothing has been offered in gratitude for your gear and efforts, the magic of the friendship is lost to some degree. In that case, I would demote him from A-team partner status.

Have you replaced the gear yet? If not, have you asked him if you can borrow his rack (or pieces you need) whilst he's not using it? Cos doing that may remind him that you lost gear without having an awkward conversation about money at a time where he may be struggling financially. But it would still allow him to decide how responsible he feels for the lost gear.

Just for some extra information: It was a #3 Camalot. He didnt' whip on it, but the piece was to his right and he had his right foot in an eyebrow and when he fell, it got stuck. I haven't had to replace it as of now.

Levi..... if you ask for your partner to pay... well you are being cheap.

You offered the use of your precious RACK.

You went out adventuring with a partner.

Stuff happens when one climbs, you do know that? Right?

Abandoning, gear to reach the ground safely is all part of the climbing game.

If I had the broken ankle and you came sniveling to me, to have me pay for it,
I most certainly would pay, but it would be the last time YOU and I ever went climbing.

Cause now I would know just what sort of partner you are.

I get that side. But I feel it can be turned both ways which is why I was curious. I could say that I was a jerk for asking and that he shouldn't climb with me or that I'm not a true friend if I have to ask. But the same could also be said about him. Like the rest of us, I have a lot of friends who are climbers who asked what we did about the bail gear and I didn't know, which is why I was asking.

I think there are valid points on both sides. As a friend used to say, "I feel strongly both ways."

I think he should pay for the gear without being asked, I would. I like Guy's characterization of the OP, very objective!

There is no Supreme Court of gear loss ethics, but common courtesy and respect for the friendship dictates offering to pay for half.

But not only does he not offer, he also now wants his gas money?

Sounds like he already values the friendship less than you, and is counting on you not having the guts to bring up the gear issue (because you fear losing the friendship more than he does).

There's a time and a place for lopsided friendships, like when you're getting other practical benefits from it: knowledge of an area unknown to you, rides, introductions to other people, etc..

"Friends" that expect you to remain mildly submissive to them even after the initial stage above is long gone are bad news, best relegated to the "acquaintance" category.

Hahaha the gas money request adds a whole other facet to this. Seriously, how close are y'all? I feel like if it's your boy this convo wouldn't be strange but maybe you're climbing acquaintances? Tell him he left his gas money in that crack and call it a day lol.

In most situations where this happens, once your partner gets into the ambulance you should go back to the cliff and get your gear with someone's help. Often, the rescue crew will collect it, as they are climbers themselves and know this is a common scenario. If you leave, well, getting your stuff back is sketchier. You know how the average climber is a cheap-ass and will take anything sitting around and call it booty. You could leave a not on the rope explaining the situation so no one will be a dick.