Accident, Rapping off of rope with a grigri

Lou Hibbard wrote:Michael Here's to a speedy recovery. My two cents: I solo TR occasionally and I would never tie into an anchor with two clove hitches. Why not a knot on a bight on one and then perhaps clove the other if you need adjustability? I know plenty do trust a clove as a sole tie-in but that is usually when the belay is attended. For an unattended anchor I would not trust only clove hitches for my tie in but perhaps I am in the minority. It will be interesting to see if I get smoked for this one.

I personally have no problems trusting my life to 2 separate anchor clove hitches. I like tying in too both chains independently because it helps keep the two strands from twisting together. Because one strand my ascender or mini trax or whatever device feeds along and I clip fixed loops on the other strand kind of like clipping a bolt. I have no problem with my solo tr system, but I in no way doubt that there isn't a more bomber system.

So, I'm sure you have more than enough going through your head on how to attempt to avoid this, what happened, how fast it happened, all that stuff. I'd like to remind you that the other lovely, quiet lesson here is that people you've never even met care about you, when it matters! Sending a PM in lieu of cookies and a hug (you can claim either/both whenever we finally meet). :-)

Good thing we are not speaking about you in the past tense.

Live and learn, Michael.

Old lady H wrote:So, I'm sure you have more than enough going through your head on how to attempt to avoid this, what happened, how fast it happened, all that stuff. I'd like to remind you that the other lovely, quiet lesson here is that people you've never even met care about you, when it matters! Sending a PM in lieu of cookies and a hug (you can claim either/both whenever we finally meet). :-)

Thanks Lady H I have seen your posts before and was wondering when I would run into you. But yea BOB was awesome and really save my ass. I owe him big time.

Thanks for posting. Glad you survived and can learn from the experience. Sounds like a pretty odd setup you were using.

Michael Beasley wrote: This is Petzls recommended system and yes would have most likely been the safer system. Finding the "perfect fool proof system is great" but in real world situations everyone with eventually have to use some system that might not be 100 percent, doesnt mean its not safe. Nothing is safer then always taking the time to Think things through!

The thing is, some systems are not safe.

Using a friction hitch the way you did here isn't safe. IMO in this case, the only way you should be rappelling on a single strand with the Grigri is the way the manufacturer tells you. Why complicate things? I'm not being a Petzl fanboy. Did you know this system?

Carabiner brake or munter is another option that should have been in your quiver. If they weren't, you should look them up and practice them. Had you considered lowering?

I may be old and parental, but I think you should rethink toprope soloing until you have more escape systems and self rescue skills dialed in.

That said, thanks for sharing and good on you. I hope the injury is a quick heal. We've all done questionable things. You're right, you can't eliminate all risk -- but you should be trying your damnedest to eliminate the subjective risks, like using a bad system or being unprepared for this scenario.

Edit: Also, big props for getting yourself out of there without calling for a rescue.

Or walk off whenever you can! I love a good walk off.

Michael Beasley wrote:KNOT YOUR ROPE / DONT FORGET TO CHECK YOUR KNOT!!

Sorry you got hurt but just to be clear, while a knot may have prevented the accident, the lesson here isn't about using a knot, it's about selecting the proper lowering technique, understanding it, and executing it without error.

A sudden need to improvise should be a bright yellow flashing light in one's head to double / triple check every aspect of an improvised solution to understand all the ramifications of what you are contemplating. You should then monitor the execution second-by-second once you commit. Not understanding you weren't going to have enough rope means the improvised solution wasn't clearly thought out all the way and the rope going through the device means you weren't paying attention to the right things while executing the solution.

Healyje wrote: Sorry you got hurt but just to be clear, while a knot may have prevented the accident, the lesson here isn't about using a knot, it's about selecting the proper lowering technique, understanding it, and executing it without error. A sudden need to improvise should be a bright yellow flashing light in one's head to double / triple check every aspect of an improvised solution to understand all the ramifications of what you are contemplating. You should then monitor the execution second-by-second once you commit. Not understanding you didn't have enough rope means the improvised solution wasn't thought out all the way and the rope going through the device means somewhere along the way you weren't paying attention to the right things while executing the solution.

This is very good advice. Always think whatever you are doing through, especially if you are venturing into improvising territory.

Healyje wrote:Not understanding you weren't going to have enough rope means the improvised solution wasn't clearly thought out all the way and the rope going through the device means you weren't paying attention to the right things while executing the solution.

Which, chances are, no amount of double checking would catch...

Fundamental lack of understanding of all the needs in the system used...rope length below the device being one component. Lucky it didn't happen on a much longer route...

Understanding the difference between lowering and rappelling...(and the needs of each system)...

Sorry for the continued sticking of the fork into this...but...its an important point and I'm glad the OP brought up this situation. We (me too) don't always think all the way through something like this especially in the heat of battle. Which...is how accidents like this happen.

'Preciate the head's up to be more careful.

chris magness wrote:It sounds like your friction hitch let go. This hasn't been mentioned yet, another option: lower yourself with the grigri. Thread the anchor, tie into one end and put yourself on belay with the grigri on the other end and simply lower. I use this tactic frequently with clients that I'd rather not have lower me!

So, this, coupled with an ascender, is the basic rig used at my gym for setting, with their top ropes.

As a brand new setter, my recent stoopid was lowering myself just out of reach of my ascender, while working on a route, and also swinging out in space. Sat there a bit staring at it, then realized I had all my usual outdoor crap on my harness, and self-rescued my dignity with a Purcell.

Not saying to use this for what you were doing, but yet another way down two strands of rope is with Purcell prussik setups Pain in the butt, far too slow when you're hungry, but the same procedure to go up a rope is reversible, to go down. Also makes a great workout!

And, Michael, you may kick my ass up around my ears - I have yet to learn a munter or clove hitch, or munter mule, or...well, there's a loonnngg list!

Thanks for sharing Mike. That took major cajones on this site. Super glad to hear you're ok, aside from the injuries.

Michael Beasley wrote: Dude that means hiking back to the top to retrieve my fixed rope, I was ready to rap and pull

Good point. Much more convenient to hit the ground from 25 feet up. At least your rope came with you.

I was referencing a biner block, or something similar.

Allen Sanderson wrote: A biner brake would have been better. This story is now about the third or forth where someone dropped their atc and could not rappel. climbing.com/skills/rappel-… Actually one can do it in a pinch with two biners. Regardless folks really need to learn how to rappel with a biner brake as it follows the KISS principle.

Best to not rap off (or lower off) the end of a rope.

I feel your pain, Michael. I broke my talus bone from a lead fall 4 weeks ago. I had surgery on March 8th where they put 2 screws in my foot. I'm still on crutches, obviously. Our accidents happened in very different ways but the result is the same and we both learned an important safety lesson. Stay positive! You will recover 100%. I'm already seeing a lot of progress with my foot just 3 weeks after surgery.

chris magness wrote:It sounds like your friction hitch let go.

If that had happened he wouldn't have gone off the end of the rope.

chris magness wrote:This hasn't been mentioned yet, another option: lower yourself with the grigri. Thread the anchor, tie into one end and put yourself on belay with the grigri on the other end and simply lower. I use this tactic frequently with clients that I'd rather not have lower me!

He was lowering himself with the Grigri, but ended up thinking about the ropes in rappel terms rather than lowering terms. The mistake was attaching (via the prussik) to essentially the middle of the rope rather than an end. There has to be at least a pitch-length worth of rope on the ground for this to work, which means, with the rope middle at the anchor and both rope ends on the ground, that the rope would have to be at least 4 pitch-lengths.

I do agree with Joe and others that at the most basic level, the take-away is to vastly increase vigilance when doing something out of the ordinary, no matter how simple the less-familiar procedure might seem. That said, a knot in the end of the ropes still would have saved the day and so is reasonably a part of that increased vigilance.

chris magness wrote:It sounds like your friction hitch let go. This hasn't been mentioned yet, another option: lower yourself with the grigri. Thread the anchor, tie into one end and put yourself on belay with the grigri on the other end and simply lower. I use this tactic frequently with clients that I'd rather not have lower me!

That method works great, and I don't think anyone is going to get made at you for doing it through the chains in an area were lowering off isn't the norm.

It's also good to have a backup plan premade for certain forseeable situations.

For example, if I ever drop my ATC guide, I've already thought about it and know that I can rap with a Muenter and if I need to belay someone from the top I can belay off the anchor with a Muenter (option 1) or off my harness (option 2).

Just thinking about it ahead of time and already having a plan in the back of your hear, I find very useful...

Glad you're not too badly injuried!

Seems an easy enough thing to have happen. After all how many climbers initially struggle with the notion that they'll end up falling closer to the ground if they clip above their waists. Sometimes it's a difficult amount of thought required tocorrectly reason about what these rope systems will do when you're high up off the ground.

Easy to see what went wrong from my armchair, though.

rgold wrote: If that had happened he wouldn't have gone off the end of the rope. He was lowering himself with the Grigri, but ended up thinking about the ropes in rappel terms rather than lowering terms. The mistake was attaching (via the prussik) to essentially the middle of the rope rather than an end. There has to be at least a pitch-length worth of rope on the ground for this to work, which means, with the rope middle at the anchor and both rope ends on the ground, that the rope would have to be at least 4 pitch-lengths. I do agree with Joe and others that at the most basic level, the take-away is to vastly increase vigilance when doing something out of the ordinary, no matter how simple the less-familiar procedure might seem. That said, a knot in the end of the ropes still would have saved the day and so is reasonably a part of that increased vigilance.

Yes, I caught-on better after I replied. He was lowering and ran short on rope because of the location of the ascender. I think it's best to eliminate the friction hitch/ ascender and tie in hard, eliminating a possible point of failure. Also good to make sure that the other end of the system is closed.

I have a close friend, a decades-experienced climber whose rope ran short and was allowed to pass through a grigri. He was fortunate enough to only break his neck. He's recovered and is now a stickler for knotting ends.