Accident, Rapping off of rope with a grigri

Big gulp of your pride with that story. Thanks for sharing it as it may help someone. Munter Hitch and all you need is a locker to rappel. I set it up by tying in and lowering myself off as you would lower another who was on a TR. Good luck.

Phil Lauffen wrote: First, that's pretty funny. What?? Why?? This is the mistake! Fix the other end of the rope with the myriad of different methods and just rap with the grigri.

or use a munter. Lots of other options.

TKeagle wrote:Used a double biner rappel - here is a good example: climbing.com/skills/rappel-… I never leave the ground without 4 ovals on my harness just in case I space my rappel device or drop it, but then I have heaps of gray facial hair. Alternately, you can do this with 4 biners of any type really (you probably had 4 spare biners on your harness right ? - just keep the gates O&O and no problem. I like the other ideas for using a hitch rappel, but a double munter rappel is a real SOB on your rope.

That's a skill everyone should learn (but I'm old too).

In a bind, if you only have minimal gear, you can do a double rope rap by wrapping the rope through 1 or 2 locking biners on your harness, exiting on your left, wrap the rope around your left hip, behind your back and grab it with your right hand. This uses the biner friction and body friction to slow you. Always use a prussic back up. It's really old school but only requires 1-2 locking biners and a piece of cord for the prussic (told you I'm old) and it does work

1Eric Rhicard wrote:Big gulp of your pride with that story. Thanks for sharing it as it may help someone. Munter Hitch and all you need is a locker to rappel. I set it up by tying in and lowering myself off as you would lower another who was on a TR. Good luck.

I hate to harp on this, but I would feel a lot better if we could take a moment to recognize that though you and the OP both said "rappel", what both you and the OP are describing is, in fact, lowering yourself. There is a significant difference between the two, as happened right here in this accident. The OP set up his rope for rappelling (anchored in the middle with both ends on the ground), and if he had rappelled he would have had enough rope to reach the ground - he fell because he lowered himself instead and did not have enough rope for that.

Jim Fox wrote: That's a skill everyone should learn (but I'm old too). In a bind, if you only have minimal gear, you can do a double rope rap by wrapping the rope through 1 or 2 locking biners on your harness, exiting on your left, wrap the rope around your left hip, behind your back and grab it with your right hand. This uses the biner friction and body friction to slow you. Always use a prussic back up. It's really old school but only requires 1-2 locking biners and a piece of cord for the prussic (told you I'm old) and it does work

I really don't understand why you might choose this over a munter - which takes only one single locking biner and does not rely on body friction.

Another important lesson that is worth taking from this is:

If suddenly you run into a situation where you can't do what you normally do, take a few minutes and stop and think very hard about what you are doing. I'm sure if you hadn't been in a hurry to get down and had stopped and thought about it you might have caught your mistake.

Dylan B. wrote:My solution would have been the following: Take a bight on one side of the chains and tie an overhand or an eight. Clip the bight around the other strand of the rope with a locking 'biner underneath the chains. That gives you a closed system just in case the knot pulls through the chains. Put the grid-gri on the end of the rope without the knot, and weight that strand so the knot is weighted and jammed up against the chains. After testing the system, unclip and lower on that end of the rope. Pull the other end at the ground. It's basically the same as using a pull line and doing a single-strand rappel, except you're using the other half the rope as a pull line. Anyone see a problem with that solution?

That is nearly identical to the Petzl method linked up thread; the only difference is that closing the system happens towards the end of the rappel setup rather than the beginning. This is my preferred method for rappelling with the GriGri though I often use two non-locking carabiners instead of the single locker.

For the record, the eight-on-a-bight is preferable here as it is less likely to pass through most anchor setups. The carabiner clipped back to the rope prevents this from being a deadly issue, but having the knot pop through does make the rope significantly harder to pull.

Dude! Glad you're not dead. Hopefully you're still able to climb through the summer.

The most important take away here is that you need to think through your system before you commit to it, and come up with reasonable contingency plans. Since you walked in to set your anchor, that should've been your first approach to get out. Yes, it's inconvenient, but 10 extra minutes of descent is a lot cheaper than whatever very your recovery time is.

The canyoneer's method (in the petzl brochure) is the correct way to rap with a gri gri. Remember that In the future. I would argue that if you're planning on using the gri gri most of the time, commit to using the gri gri the whole time, so you don't have the chance to forget the other device. If there's another lesson to be learned here, it's that swapping out equipment is another opportunity to make a mistake.

Again, glad you're ok! Hit me up the next time you need a partner, yeah? You know I can catch a fall.

Em Cos wrote: I really don't understand why you might choose this over a munter - which takes only one single locking biner and does not rely on body friction.

Yeah, a munter is better if one knows how to tie and use it (not hard but not everyone knows)

Could go really old school and do a body rappel (not really recomnded-LOL). I learned this technique in the 70's...
Uh...

tim wrote: Biner block

A biner brake would have been better.

This story is now about the third or forth where someone dropped their atc and could not rappel.
climbing.com/skills/rappel-…

TKeagle wrote:I never leave the ground without 4 ovals on my harness just in case I space my rappel device or drop it

Actually one can do it in a pinch with two biners. Regardless folks really need to learn how to rappel with a biner brake as it follows the KISS principle.

Allen Sanderson wrote: and biner brake. This story is now about the third or forth where someone dropped their atc and could not rappel. Folks really need to learn how to rappel with a biner brake as it follows the KISS principle. climbing.com/skills/rappel-…

Every climber should know how to do this and how to use a Munter, as others have previously pointed out.

A dropped ATC shouldn't be cause for rescue....

shotwell wrote: That is nearly identical to the Petzl method linked up thread; the only difference is that closing the system happens towards the end of the rappel setup rather than the beginning. This is my preferred method for rappelling with the GriGri though I often use two non-locking carabiners instead of the single locker. For the record, the eight-on-a-bight is preferable here as it is less likely to pass through most anchor setups. The carabiner clipped back to the rope prevents this from being a deadly issue, but having the knot pop through does make the rope significantly harder to pull.

Most people I know when canyoneering (myself included) simply replace the fig 8 with a locker on a clove. Why? Because it is now basically impossible for the knot to pull into the rings and get stuck. If you want to close the system, add the fig 8 below the cloved locker (on the pull side) and clip back to the rap line, although many forgo this step (at their own peril) because it tends to result in a number of interesting complications during the pull.

Em Cos wrote: I hate to harp on this, but I would feel a lot better if we could take a moment to recognize that though you and the OP both said "rappel", what both you and the OP are describing is, in fact, lowering yourself. There is a significant difference between the two, as happened right here in this accident. The OP set up his rope for rappelling (anchored in the middle with both ends on the ground), and if he had rappelled he would have had enough rope to reach the ground - he fell because he lowered himself instead and did not have enough rope for that.

^^^This!

I've watched friends clean routes on "lower" with a gri gri. Works ok if you tie into the end of the rope (as someone else mentioned).

Solo TR method might not be "best practice".

Xam wrote: Most people I know when canyoneering (myself included) simply replace the fig 8 with a locker on. clove. Why? Because it is now basically impossible for the knot to pull into the rings and get stuck. If you want to close the system, add the fig 8 below the cloved locker (on the pull side) and clip back to the rap line, although many forgo this step (at their own peril) because it tends to result in a number of interesting complications during the pull.

Been at least two fatalites when "biner blocks" have pulled thru rap rings. One in Zion and one in Yosemite. So...not impossible.

Michael
Here's to a speedy recovery.
My two cents:
I solo TR occasionally and I would never tie into an anchor with two clove hitches. Why not a knot on a bight on one and then perhaps clove the other if you need adjustability?

I know plenty do trust a clove as a sole tie-in but that is usually when the belay is attended. For an unattended anchor I would not trust only clove hitches for my tie in but perhaps I am in the minority.

It will be interesting to see if I get smoked for this one.

Brian in SLC wrote: Been at least two fatalites when "biner blocks" have pulled thru rap rings. One in Zion and one in Yosemite. So...not impossible.

Hey Brian,

I don't want to get in an argument here but I think if you read my post carefully you will see that the small change I am suggesting to the petzl method does not (1) prevent you from closing the system with a fig 8 (which I recommend of course) and (2) is much less likely then to result in the yosemite accident (as you have to pull an entire locker through the rings, instead of just a knot) if done without closing the system, as was the situation in that case. I am sorry but I not familiar with the details of the Zion accident.

Perhaps I wasn't clear that you are now blocking with a cloved biner and not simply a knot?

-Xam

Em Cos wrote: I hate to harp on this, but I would feel a lot better if we could take a moment to recognize that though you and the OP both said "rappel", what both you and the OP are describing is, in fact, lowering yourself. There is a significant difference between the two, as happened right here in this accident. The OP set up his rope for rappelling (anchored in the middle with both ends on the ground), and if he had rappelled he would have had enough rope to reach the ground - he fell because he lowered himself instead and did not have enough rope for that.

Again what your saying is true, just like what a lot of posters have said. But I think some are missing my point or at least what I took away from everything, I know how to do a biner block/knot block, I know how to rappel with a munter, and how to rap using my body for friction. All of these are great ways to rappel with out using a tube style device, which was the norm for many many years. But I didn't use those systems, I used a system I have used before many times without incident. But SHIT still happens, I didn,t know if I should post anything because I have witnessed the shit show that most threads turn into. But i am trying to just re-iterate to think everything through, double check before you leave the ground and before you come off an anchor. It happens so quickly, and it only takes one time, by no means do I know everything but I am competent enough that this should not have happened.

KNOT YOUR ROPE
DONT FORGET TO CHECK YOUR KNOT!!

Stagg54 wrote:Another important lesson that is worth taking from this is: If suddenly you run into a situation where you can't do what you normally do, take a few minutes and stop and think very hard about what you are doing. I'm sure if you hadn't been in a hurry to get down and had stopped and thought about it you might have caught your mistake.

THIS

Xam wrote:I am sorry but I not familiar with the details of the Zion accident. Perhaps I wasn't clear that you are now blocking with a cloved biner and not simply a knot? -Xam

The Zion accident was the last rappel out of Heaps. Biner block was onto/against another large carabiner, and, the whole shootin' match pulled through. 280 feet? Ugh.

Folks routinely replace rapides and rings in Zion that don't accomodate some carabiner blocks (last rappel in Mystery a couple of years ago for example). So, even a biner block can slip through some rings.

I've never understood the need to rappel single strand off any block when you have enough rope for a double rope rappel. Canyoneers have to be different I suppose. But, if you're not going to rig for contingency, then why block, say, the last rappel in Pine Creek in Zion if you have a single 60m rope? 100 foot rappel, no knot, rap double, easy peasy.

Sure, any rappel method is intolerant to mistakes. Just seems to me that when you get further away from keeping it simple, the complication adds additional risk. Folks mistake a munter for a clove hitch on biner blocks, rap on the wrong side of the block, etc.

Learn the biner brake and munter hitch. And...stay safe! Double check your rig prior to launch!

Dylan B. wrote:My solution would have been the following: Take a bight on one side of the chains and tie an overhand or an eight. Clip the bight around the other strand of the rope with a locking 'biner underneath the chains. That gives you a closed system just in case the knot pulls through the chains. Put the grid-gri on the end of the rope without the knot, and weight that strand so the knot is weighted and jammed up against the chains. After testing the system, unclip and lower on that end of the rope. Pull the other end at the ground. It's basically the same as using a pull line and doing a single-strand rappel, except you're using the other half the rope as a pull line. Anyone see a problem with that solution?

This is Petzls recommended system and yes would have most likely been the safer system. Finding the "perfect fool proof system is great" but in real world situations everyone with eventually have to use some system that might not be 100 percent, doesnt mean its not safe. Nothing is safer then always taking the time to Think things through!