Do You Say Something?

Greg D wrote:That's totaly fine. Unless that cord is tied with the new variation of the EDK called the flat 8. Do you know what knot they used? Disclosure: that anchor is not fine and the flat 8 is deadly and not a variation of the EDK despite what a recent climbing magazine said.

There was no knot at the master point. The cord was tied in a loop with a standard double fishermans, like you would do for a prussik cord. But it was attached to the sling around the boulder by just running it through a carabiner. And same thing for the master point. No knots.

This is an easy question.

It doesn't matter if you're a noob or not. If you see something that seems really sketchy, say something. Whether you just learned to climb in the gym or you're a sponsored alpinist, your approach should be the same: Ask if you can give them some feedback, and then if they're receptive, give it. You don't need to act like you're sharing some kind of 11th commandment, you just tell them what you see, and why it concerns you. Be humble about it. You're intruding on their day.

If you are a noob, and there's something you didn't know about, and they explain it to you - great! You just learned something today! If they accidentally overlooked something, great, they'll be happy you pointed it out. If they don't have a clue what they're doing, they may or may not be happy to hear what you have to say, but there's no harm done either way.

That said, if they will not change what they're doing, their explanation is as sketchy as their anchor, and there is nothing I can do about it, I would rather leave and climb somewhere else. I'll keep my ears peeled for the screams so I can help out in the rescue, but I don't need the nightmares after hearing the poor climber go splat, much less seeing it happen in front of me. And worst case, the climber could get dropped on me or my belayer (I've had it happen).

GO

And to the (less relevant) question about whether that anchor was actually sketchy enough to be dangerous - the answer to that is also a definite yes.

GO

Please do say something. I'm a fairly rational guy with good risk assessment skills, but I make mistakes. I hope if I were doing something stupid because of

1. Ignorance
2. Distraction
3. Bad habit
4. I'm out of my mind focused on the destination
5. Having a bad day
6. Any other reason why I ever make mistakes

I hope someone who observed my error would correct me. It's up to me to be open to criticism or not. It's also up to me to be responsible and not get killed, but that's another topic...

Rocky_Mtn_High wrote:I tend to lead with a question as if to ask for their advice, rather than assuming I know more and putting them on the defensive by directly criticizing their anchor, e.g. "Hey, I'm learning about building top-rope anchors, and would you mind explaining about your set up? I think I'd be concerned about not using a redundant loop, especially with a 5mm cord."

This is similar to what I do. Since you are a beginner you might be totally wrong about the safety of the set up. By asking you may learn something by asking or you may illustrate a legitimate safety concern with your questions.

Yes.

The last two times I've been out I've said something to other parties. The last one was someone saying "Off Belay" while threading the rope and then saying "Take" to be lowered off a sport route. That gives me the heebeegeebees when someone does that because they didn't really mean to be off belay in the first place.

I always ask them if they want some unsolicited advise and I also say they are free to ignore it. Most people are very receptive...and I'm willing to put my ego aside and risk them thinking I"m a jerk to hopefully help them not have an accident while I'm there and so they can climb long enough to realize all the dumb stuff they did on their path of learning. I know I have done some stupid stuff.

We are a small community. Let's watch out for each other...even the sport rapeller fellers that shouldn't be at the cliff.

matt c. wrote: This is similar to what I do. Since you are a beginner you might be totally wrong about the safety of the set up. By asking you may learn something by asking or you may illustrate a legitimate safety concern with your questions.

Also, phrasing the question this way does not make the person feel like you are attacking them with criticism. I feel that this is an important factor in things like this. If you are polite and genuinely curious, most people are more receptive to your ideas.

If they have an adequate explanation for what you thought was sketchy, then cool, you learned a thing. And if they don't, hopefully they'll rethink their set-up.

You might get brushed off with a "Ahh, its fine. I've always built my anchors this way and they've never failed." in which case you just kinda have to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Greg D wrote:^^^ even more important to speak up then. Try to get the instructor aside so you don't embarrass him at first. Take it from there.

Agree w Greg 100% here ^^.

If i had set up a shitshow like that I would hope someone would have straightened me out. We all started somewhere and did our fair share of dumb shitte. Worst case scenario is you get told to pack sand and mind your own business.

Worst case scenario in not saying anything is far worse than that.

Don't interfere with natural selection! You don't wanna be a part of degrading the gene pool do you?!

tim wrote:Don't interfere with natural selection! You don't wanna be a part of degrading the gene pool do you?!

+1 spot on. We are talking about a few dumb people less and we don't even need to make it look like an accident!I'm only talking about a few special people. But if it spreads and all of the sudden it's like Darfur for stupid people then so be it!

Greg D wrote: Yes. I woke up really grumpy. Just found out I can't climb for weeks or months. Thanks for asking. If you notice someone is really grumpy should you say something?

You should give them a cookie and a hug.

But say nothing.

Em Cos wrote: You should give them a cookie and a hug. But say nothing.

Well then, I need an oatmeal raisin cookie and a hug. Blew my finger. No good cure except time off from climbing. Argh!

powhound84 wrote:If I see something that I really think has a chance to hurt or kill someone, I will very quietly approach the group and tell them my concerns without being a dick about it. I really think it's how you say things, not what you say to people that dictates whether the reaction is friendly or otherwise. Of course, if the group tells me to fuck off I will gladly do so, knowing that I did my part.

Exactly the point. Please guys say something you may save a life.

Hi All,

I am in agreement with the "say something" option here.

I was out top roping with my eight year old and next to me, 20' away were four college kids (yes, I can call them kids as I used to be one of them and am now not :))

Two dudes, two ladies. The ladies apparently had never belayed and were doing so. One dude was climbing, the other was playing with rocks. I noticed the natural hand-over-fist tug and pull that the lady was doing and shuddered.

So I spoke up. I said "hey guys, I'm not that old dude at the crag who likes to dish out my opinion, but would would you be open to a modicum of friendly advice?"

They were totally cool and I explained to them the proper belay technique and the one dude said that he should have been watching her a bit closer. Gave him a wink and we all carried on.

Better to be cool about it and try.

My 2c.

J