rock and ice claims "EDK failure" and that EDKs need to be reinvestigated

For anyone who has commented about the problems of a welded knot there is an easy fix roll the knot under foot back and forth 5-6 times. Of course a clean surface is best .

Maybe---YMMV. I've got some purposely welded double fisherman's knots (i.e. tightened by bodyweight bouncing) in some old 7mm slings. I just tried the foot-rolling on them and it did absolutely nothing after 5--6 rolls. So I kept going for about 50 rolls and still absolutely nuttin'.

rgold wrote:Maybe---YMMV. I've got some purposely welded double fisherman's knots (i.e. tightened by bodyweight bouncing) in some old 7mm slings. I just tried the foot-rolling on them and it did absolutely nothing after 5--6 rolls. So I kept going for about 50 rolls and still absolutely nuttin'.

Same experience here. I've rolled, rolled again, banged, hammered on etc well-set dbl fishermans on several occasions. Ultimately I resort to a rather unique old tool I have, a pliers with smooth, curved jaws that grab the rope firmly without damaging it. Of course this is not something I carry with me at the crag.

For the record, I quit tying rap ropes with a dbl fishermans the second time the knot hung up 180 feet above me.

djh860 wrote:Let's be honest here the EDK is a shit knot.

In knot theory land this might be true. Knots rope on rope friction for them to work and the EDK I suspect requires far less than say a triple fishermans.

However back to the reality of our needs and uses, climbing ropes have ample friction for the EDK to work. It works and it does not fail. I've found this to be the case even on more slippery materials...

Anyone got some fishing line handy to try? I don't have any myself.

rgold wrote:Maybe---YMMV. I've got some purposely welded double fisherman's knots (i.e. tightened by bodyweight bouncing) in some old 7mm slings. I just tried the foot-rolling on them and it did absolutely nothing after 5--6 rolls. So I kept going for about 50 rolls and still absolutely nuttin'.

I've concur. The double-fishermans welds itself easily and strongly.

The original reference from Rock and Ice was unusual in that the knot unraveled during a single rappel. This implies that it was not tied or dressed correctly. Over the years, the reports of the flat 8 unraveling have always been with a correctly tied knot but on multiple rappels, which leads to a conclusion not mentioned thus far. If doing multiple rappels, one should always check the knot after each rappel no matter what knot has been employed.

Rob.calm

Checking is always a good idea but there is absolutely no reason to ever use a flat-8 for joining rappel lines. Ever.

rob.calm wrote:Over the years, the reports of the flat 8 unraveling have always been with a correctly tied knot but on multiple rappels

Unfortunately this is not true. One of the accidents pointed to I believe in the article was the death of a friend of mine in Zion. The knot was tied just prior to it failing on a single rap.

rgold wrote:Checking is always a good idea but there is absolutely no reason to ever use a flat-8 for joining rappel lines. Ever.

Use of absolutes in giving climbing advice... I expected better from you.

eli poss wrote: Use of absolutes in giving climbing advice...

What would be a reason to join rappel ropes with a flat 8?

rob.calm wrote:Over the years, the reports of the flat 8 unraveling have always been with a correctly tied knot but on multiple rappels,

David Coley wrote:Unfortunately this is not true. One of the accidents pointed to I believe in the article was the death of a friend of mine in Zion. The knot was tied just prior to it failing on a single rap.

There was also a death at Seneca Rocks, WV in 1995 when a figure-of-8 unraveled on the first rappel.

brenta wrote: What would be a reason to join rappel ropes with a flat 8?

Because the user is unaware there is a difference between the overhand and figure eight when joining ropes end-to-end. When I was brand new to climbing I used to tie webbing slings with an EDK instead of a waterknot. I was unaware that there was a big difference between the two and to they appeared to be the same knot.

rgold wrote: The accident was full of problematic actions. The original report was on the old rec.climbing. Here is a link: groups.google.com/forum/#!t… As for it "being known" that the flat figure-8 is dangerous, this is sadly not universally the case. You can find it recommended on some French climbing sites, for example. A random search turned up this from

, for example. Here is another account which suggests either the overhand or the figure-8 without any reservations (other than the fact that the figure-8 is physically bigger), this one from montagne-secu.com/rappel/ Anyway, the flat overhand is just fine; we really don't need alternatives. And one of the take-aways from the badness of the flat figure-8 is that intuitions about both strength and stability are poor, and it is easy to overlook possibly catastrophic special conditions.

I'm a little confused. The pictures above are not the knot that I know as the flat figure eight. And I would never use that knot for a rappel.

However, this (below) is what I know as a flat figure eight, figure eight ben, or flemish bend and don't understand that it has a tendency to roll:


Am I just wrong or did I miss something simple?

eli poss wrote: Use of absolutes in giving climbing advice... I expected better from you.

As with every human, I have my moments of weakness.

Bill Czajkowski wrote: I'm a little confused. The pictures above are not the knot that I know as the flat figure eight. And I would never use that knot for a rappel. However, this (below) is what I know as a flat figure eight, figure eight ben, or flemish bend and don't understand that it has a tendency to roll: Am I just wrong or did I miss something simple?

the first one is a flat figure 8. the second is flemish bend/fig 8 bend. they are analogous to a flat overhand (EDK) and ring bend/water knot. The flemish bend is awesome... the flat fig 8 not so much.

And to rgold: It is my duty as an internet user and MPer to point out every imperfection, beat off the dead horse, nitpick, etc.

20 kN wrote: Because the user is unaware there is a difference between the overhand and figure eight when joining ropes end-to-end. When I was brand new to climbing I used to tie webbing slings with an EDK instead of a waterknot. I was unaware that there was a big difference between the two and to they appeared to be the same knot.

In our youth we've all done something we are no longer proud of. But having done it doesn't contradict the recommendation against it.

eli poss wrote: beat off the dead horse, .

Now there's a freaky variation on an old phrase. It certainly will have a different outcome.

I'm an old dude, about to turn 60 ... BITD we used grapevine to tie rope ends ... I could still tie one of these in my sleep ... can anyone tell me how it fell out of favor ... ?

rgold wrote:Checking is always a good idea but there is absolutely no reason to ever use a flat-8 for joining rappel lines. Ever.

eli poss wrote: Use of absolutes in giving climbing advice... I expected better from you.

brenta wrote: What would be a reason to join rappel ropes with a flat 8?

I'd be interested in your answer to this Eli - if you're going to criticize rgold for saying there is no reason to ever use a flat-8 to join rappel ropes, then you are implying that you think there IS a good reason... what is it? Because I sure can't think of one.

docsavage wrote:I'm an old dude, about to turn 60 ... BITD we used grapevine to tie rope ends ... I could still tie one of these in my sleep ... can anyone tell me how it fell out of favor ... ?

That cylinder that is the knot can far to easily get hung-up or outright stuck on highly featured rock. The relatively smooth granite of Yosemite - not so much. The highly featured sandstone of Red Rock that is littered with rope eating flakes and knobs - a different story.

The real EDK (not the nonsense in the R&I piece) is a smaller knot, but more importantly, it naturally places the flat side of the knot against the rock. Does it eliminate getting stuck? Of course not, but the chances are less than any of the big, fat barrel style knots.

Oh, regarding your age reference - I'll turn 62 later this year. I've been using the EDK to knot rap ropes for 20+ years.

docsavage wrote:I'm an old dude, about to turn 60 ... BITD we used grapevine to tie rope ends ... I could still tie one of these in my sleep ... can anyone tell me how it fell out of favor ... ?

Also, speed of tying and untying.

Here's a clip of an overhand capsizing:
youtube.com/watch?v=FqATAX4…
It's hard to hear the loads as they are called out but it looks to begin to capsize at or over 600 lbs and broke at something over 2000 lbs.

Here's an overhand made in a wet rope pulled. Loads not included.
youtube.com/watch?v=qONWJXM…