Bridging The Gap, Inside to Outside

I've seen the topic of properly educating gym climbers to the outdoors in terms of etiquette and technical skills covered at great length. What I'm more interested in creating is a more realistic experience in the gym. My question to you is what changes would you like to see in gyms, hold manufacturing, etc. that would help gym climbing be more beneficial to your outdoor climbing? Do you think it's even a problem?

More slab setting, smaller foot holds, less jugs, less volumes
Close the bathrooms and make them pack out their waste. No music.

More feet, smaller (much smaller) feet, and lower angles. My gym has barely any vertical or less than vertical walls, but my primary outdoor objectives are just that.

I'm not necessarily sure it is desirable to make the gym a "more realistic experience". The value of the gym, if designed well and used well, can be the way it is different from climbing outside. The ideal gym to improve your outdoor climbing is not an exact facsimile of climbing outside, but rather a facility is actually better than "real" climbing at improving your strength/abilities. A good indoor program will make your fingers wicked strong in a much more effective manner than random outdoor climbing.

My ideal gym might not even have set/graded routes at all. The more your gym session looks like a fun cragging day, the easier it is to get sidetracked from training and just have a fun cragging day. Better to go into the training dungeon mindset. My ideal gym would have several hangboards, a campus board, a treadwall, an adjustable systems wall, a Moon Board or a "CATS"-style woody wall, some rings, and some free weights. That's it. Everything else is just a distraction.

But if you are climbing on the regular set routes, I'll second the call for less jugs/slopers, more small edges/pockets, and more/smaller feet. Moves on rock tend to have 10 tiny footholds to choose from, not one big foothold.

Also:

polloloco wrote: No music.

I know that technical/blank walls are the rage nowadays because of the comp crowd, but to be honest, I prefer featured walls for outdoor training. You get used to using the tiny chips, nubs and other features rather than just planting onto big, bright colored holds.

I did a quick mental count and I've been to a total of 7 gyms. What I've noticed is that some setters can do a lot with very little. The layout of the walls can make a difference, as can the variety of holds they have available, but I think it really comes down to the passion and ingenuity of the setter.

However, if I were to point to any one thing, I would say using weirdly shaped holds that don't have one obvious way to use them always makes things more interesting.

I agree with JCM's sentiment to a point. The gym should be for training.

I also wish my gym had a wider variety of cracks.

Mathias wrote: What I've noticed is that some setters can do a lot with very little...it really comes down to the passion and ingenuity of the setter.

It has more to do with the intentions of the setter. A skilled professional setter can set great problems that are still useless for preparing/training for outdoor climbing, if that setter's intention is to set world-cup style problems. The setting at many modern gyms, such as Seattle Bouldering Project, comes to mind. Stuntwerk, in Germany, would be an extreme example-- creative setting, great for comp preparation, probably useless for training for your outdoor project.

One the other end of the spectrum, a mediocre/amateur setter (I'm looking at myself here) can set problems which, even if not very interesting or creative, are still damn good for making you strong for outdoor climbing, if that is their intention. The best, though, is a skilled setter deliberately setting problems designed to transfer well to outdoor climbing. The Denver Bouldering Club comes to mind here.

Mathias wrote:.... but I think it really comes down to the passion and ingenuity of the setter.....

This 100%. Just having vertical walls and small jibs for feet doesn't mean that the setting will produce any quality routes or transferable results to the outdoors.

Far too many setters start at the bottom of the wall with a bucket full of holds and just aim to get from the bottom to the top with no real thought. Then to tweak the grade of the climb they just make holds bigger/smaller or closer/farther apart instead of changing any technical aspects of a route. This results in 5.11's that are just monster reaches between positive holds and huge feet. Not transferable to most outdoor crags.

more cracks, OW in the gym, chimneys, and liebacks

JCM, I agree, the intention of the setter has a great deal to do with the effect climbing their problems and routes can have on the climber.

My favorite gym has some very creative setters that make routes which often make me work hard mentally. This is something I greatly appreciate. But I can see others would prefer a focus on physical training.

As an outdoor climber who is a brand new setter, your comments are greatly appreciated and noted! My aim is to try and do things in the gym that are "outdoor" moves I think would be fun. What I know, though, is that if you haven't climbed outside much you might not recognize what I gave you to play with. Already I have a short traverse on a route, which people regularly are struggling to swap feet on, when all they have to do is turn sideways and just stroll across! That's gonna be a huge "Aha"! when they discover it. I'm also determined to get in some hand jams built with a couple of those big flat holds, whenever I come across the opportunity, even though only a few of us will smile when we see them.

What I would really like in every gym is an "outdoor skills" practice area. I've taken my Purcell's in to practice ascending, with permission, but it ties up one of their rope stations. Anchors just high enough to get up off the ground would be great, ditto for being able to have a super short "pitch" (8-10ft.) easily accessible top and bottom,for trying out all sorts of things.

Agreed. My gym actually has a top out ledge with an anchor on it which would be great for practicing multi-pitch transitions, but sadly there's no second pitch and they haven't quite figured out what to do with it (probably pretty complicated with insurance/certifications). I remember learning to clean anchors by mock leading on the autobelay...we also had a set of chains about 5 feet off the ground for practicing. Being able to provide a safe space for tinkering/experimenting/practicing is one of the best things gyms can provide for gym-crag.

Also: not having permadraws on every wall. This is something that annoys me about all of the newer gyms springing up...hanging quickdraws properly is a skill that needs to be practiced! I've climbed with many gym rats who didn't even know about gate orientation, extending/longer draws, etc.

I've really enjoyed natural rock walls (see Lindseth at Cornell, link below). Most have been relatively small, but some, like Lindseth are nice and tall. The holds and lack of overhang translate well into outdoor rock. Finger to hand size cracks can be worked into all climbs, and the best jugs are really just horizontal rocks, not sand-paper handles like most gyms. Grout and smears are always on, just like outside. Also, the slimy-ness that develops on holds translate well to the most popular climbing destinations. I'd love to see more of these gym types open up.

It limits the options for route setters, but opens up setting possibilities to everyone (just tape the "on" holds).

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I don't mind music, but the volume shouldn't be up so high you can't hear the person you are belaying once they're more than halfway up. And the more crowded the gym, the lower the music volume has to be, because there are several people within a few feet of each other trying to communicate.

I tend to agree with JCM about the unimportance of "realism" for anyone training for outdoor climbing. I think that wishing for more small crimps and finger pockets is just wishing for more injuries---one reason climbing holds have evolved away from little edges is to provide training value while keeping the tweak factor as low as possible, and as an old broken-down climber I really appreciate that trend. Plus most gyms properly devote little space to walls that are less than vertical, where routes with uniformly small holds could be set.

One of the things I like least about the indoor setting I encounter is the "single foot---high step" propensity. You take a high step onto a hold and there is no place for the other foot until you take another high step onto another single foothold. After a winter of this, I sometimes find myself climbing this way outdoors when it is utterly unnecessary, and have to remind myself to pay more attention to all that real rock offers.

Having played around a bit with setting, I don't think it is necessarily hard to set problems more reminiscent of the outdoor experience---if you have enough outdoor experience. I think there are setters who really don't climb outside much, and they don't have enough perspective on the nature of real rock difficulties to create a good facsimile of that experience indoors.

Bumping this for your continued input! I have incorporated a whole lot of your comments into what I am doing as a setter at the nifty little university gym I frequent. Here is what I've been up to, and some of my ideas. Let me know what you think! :-)

With my size, age, etc., it turns out I am the one who is setting climbs for, literally, any body. It has been a really nice surprise to do this, and be valued for it.

With that in mind, I just set my first ever boulder route, a very easy traverse across the whole little cave, that works going either direction and is set low enough to simply step off/on at any point. I'm hoping the hard bodies can do laps, work drop knees, use it how they wish to train, yet kids, beginners, arthritic knees can still climb too.

We don't have any cracks, so I am trying to see if I can get some jams built by placing holds close together. Currently, I'm working in a dihedral, so I'm placing a vertical line of jugs turned sideways, and will add a mess of smallish feet, hoping for a section that will allow for trying laybacks, stemming with big hand holds for beginners, or the smaller holds, and even act as a chimney, if you catch on, and, well, will undoubtedly get used as a jug ladder for those who just think going up is it.

I'm also hoping to talk the gym dudes/dudettes into just one wall with no routes at all, just loads of holds, set in interesting ways, like underclings that actually work in opposition with something, not just a hard thing to grab/hold on to.

Thanks for your feedback! The comments in this thread earlier were really helpful.

Best, Helen

How about having routes that are "open feet" and having 3-6 footholds for each move rather than one or two designated footholds for each move. Also, in my brief time setting at the college gym I found some holds that required more thought than usual as they could be used as a crimp, a sloper, a pinch, or an undercling/gaston or a combination. These holds made problems more interesting and I found myself using the hold slightly differently each time I climbed the problem.

Thanks, Eli! I was sorry to see that cast show up! Hope you don't have much longer.

The reason I offered to help set was a period where even the "easy" routes often left me with literally nothing at all in reach, even using every hold no matter the route (anything I can get to is fair game, inside and out, any way I can make it work). I even tried a few moon shots, but haven't nailed any, so far. So, more choices in feet is a good call.

A couple people mentioned less than vertical walls. My gym doesn't have any, but the local YMCA has a nifty one that's about 60°, quite short, and with very easy holds closely spaced. It's fun to watch preschoolers climb! I'd like one like that to climb using only feet.

CRACKS!! I want to feel like I'm outside at a gym. Chimneys would be great. Natural colors. Maybe a pool or at least some fish and plants. And holds that sometimes pop off. Oh, and birds and poop.

Old lady H wrote:Thanks, Eli! I was sorry to see that cast show up! Hope you don't have much longer. The reason I offered to help set was a period where even the "easy" routes often left me with literally nothing at all in reach, even using every hold no matter the route (anything I can get to is fair game, inside and out, any way I can make it work). I even tried a few moon shots, but haven't nailed any, so far. So, more choices in feet is a good call. A couple people mentioned less than vertical walls. My gym doesn't have any, but the local YMCA has a nifty one that's about 60°, quite short, and with very easy holds closely spaced. It's fun to watch preschoolers climb! I'd like one like that to climb using only feet.

Thanks. The cast is actually gone with a boot in its place, weight bearing starting may 5th.

A wall that is slightly less than vertical to vertical (75-90 degrees) would be awesome, and having progressively smaller holds to practice no hands climbing would do wonders for gym rats' balance and finesse. Unfortunately, this can result in an increased chance for injury as it means a less clean fall. And because most gyms are bound by insurance contracts, these less than vertical walls can be rare.

I've seen a few gym lately who aren't grading their routes based on the Yds, just color coding from easy to hard to harder. It's a step in the right direction the get these numbers out of people's heads.

What I'd like to see from more gyms is hiring employees who are actually knowledgable of the craft and not just your average summer camp counselor who knows how to belay. I know that good help is hard to find though.

And also the owners need to take responsibility (assuming that they are somewhat skilled climbers) to educate their patrons on the differences between the gym and outside climbing etiquette.