Poll: Whats your opinion on dogs at the crag?

J. Albers wrote: Dude, usually you're a voice of reason around here, but phewww...you are way off here. Do dogs have the sophisticated range of emotions that humans have? Of course not, and to argue otherwise would be retarded. However, it is equally retarded to state that dogs don't exhibit "high level" emotions. I am absolutely certain that I have witnessed dog emotions that are associated with longing, regret, affection to particular individuals, etc. And those emotions are not necessarily predicated on who gives out the grub. Some things just don't require rigorous scientific proof because they are self evident. For example, everyone knows that cold beer is amazing and vegan food sucks. Why? Because they are facts. And I don't need all those years I wasted getting my Ph.D to tell me that because any fool knows that a bloody cheeseburger tastes better than tofurky. And my puppy loves me at a completely high level. Her love is turned up to eleven. So there. QED. Done and Done. :)

While I agree with your main point that dogs can exhibit complex emotions at times, if you have a PhD then you know that "Some things just don't require rigorous scientific proof because they are self evident" is a dumb thing to say. That isn't how science works. Anecdotes are not qualitative. You say things like "I have witnessed..." "Everyone knows..." but neither of those things have even a fraction of the weight of citing a scientific study that supports your point.

Here is a study showing that dogs exhibited jealousy (a trait considered a "high level" emotion): tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.…

Here is a study showing that the acoustic parameters of a dog's bark can convey emotions/mood: sciencedirect.com/science/a…

Stagg54 wrote: they are animals by nature...

So are humans. Unless you live in Mississippi or Texas.

J mac wrote:If you don't like dogs, you are an asshole. If dogs don't like you, it's because you are an asshole.

This generally seems to be the case.

Stagg54 wrote: they are animals by nature...

Annnnnd if you don't like animals, then you shouldn't go outside. :)

Jim Fox wrote:Interesting discussion bioscience.oxfordjournals.o…

Very good article. ^
Tough to make any definitive statement refgarding what another person is feeling, let alone an animal but I think it's a gross oversimplification to exclude the possibility that at least some animals (mammals) have emotions. Obviously they are different than people but still feel things we really have no way of measuring.

wow... they are dogs people... here's a summary: if you love them, you'll like them at the crag; if you tolerate them, you won't really mind too much (it'll depend on the dog); if you don't like them, you'll complain. the level of vitriol and overall craziness for this topic is unreal.

cragmantoo wrote:Obviously they are different than people but still feel things we really have no way of measuring.

This is an interesting point. How to you objectively prove the existence of something you have no way to measure? You can only make inferences and observations based on what you can actually measure, so while it would be shortsighted to deny any possibility of something that you cant measure, it would also be shortsighted to purport that it exists without having first measured it.

This is sort of like a Cogito Ergo Sum type of thing. We know we have emotions because we feel them and can verify their existence, but we cant really know anyone (or anything) else has them unless we can measure that in some way. Whether that can be done via brain activity imaging or something remains to be seen I guess.

Lastly, westry said "the level of vitriol and overall craziness for this topic is unreal." And that is definitely true. Dogs at the crag shouldn't such a divisive topic lol.

I have always had dogs and am very fond of them but am also very cognizant of the fact that they can be annoying to other people. I don't take them climbing, because I know they can be pains in the butt. I get aggravated when people do things at the crag that annoy me (smoking, for example), so I try hard to be considerate of climbers who don't appreciate dogs.

As far as animals having emotions, my feeling is that anyone who has lived with animals (not just studied about them in a classroom) can see that animals have real and often complex emotions. Dogs emotions are less complicated than humans (which is part of their appeal). Drives me crazy when people treat dogs like their children and too many people think they shouldn't set boundaries for them (kids and dogs). Just my opinion....

Quinn Baker wrote: This is an interesting point. How to you objectively prove the existence of something you have no way to measure? You can only make inferences and observations based on what you can actually measure, so while it would be shortsighted to deny any possibility of something that you cant measure, it would also be shortsighted to purport that it exists without having first measured it. This is sort of like a Cogito Ergo Sum type of thing. We know we have emotions because we feel them and can verify their existence, but we cant really know anyone (or anything) else has them unless we can measure that in some way. Whether that can be done via brain activity imaging or something remains to be seen I guess. Lastly, westry said "the level of vitriol and overall craziness for this topic is unreal." And that is definitely true. Dogs at the crag shouldn't such a divisive topic lol.

Very hard to study emotions in people or animals. Much harder in animals because they can't tell us what they feel and they nost certainly perceive the world in a much different (and simpler) way vs. humans.

Just because things can't be accurately measured or defined, doesn't always mean they don't exist. It just means we have limits on what we can find hard evidence for. Not very scientific, but as a physician, I know science has it's limits when you start talking about thoughts/feelings/ cognition.

Quinn Baker wrote: While I agree with your main point that dogs can exhibit complex emotions at times, if you have a PhD then you know that "Some things just don't require rigorous scientific proof because they are self evident" is a dumb thing to say. That isn't how science works. Anecdotes are not qualitative. You say things like "I have witnessed..." "Everyone knows..." but neither of those things have even a fraction of the weight of citing a scientific study that supports your point. Here is a study showing that dogs exhibited jealousy (a trait considered a "high level" emotion): tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.… Here is a study showing that the acoustic parameters of a dog's bark can convey emotions/mood: sciencedirect.com/science/a…

Anecdotes are not proof? And they're not qualitative? Oh no, I've been spending my whole career on shaky ground. Ahhhh. Oh wait, no, you just must have the world's most insensitive sarcasm meter. I mean really Quinn? Dogging on vegans and citing cold beer being amazing as a scientifically provable fact did not tip you off? Step down from the pedestal of taking yourself too seriously good man. Not everyone uses a climbing website to show off their scientific prowess. But you know, carry on Copernicus.

cragmantoo wrote: As far as animals having emotions, my feeling is that anyone who has lived with animals (not just studied about them in a classroom) can see that animals have real and often complex emotions. Dogs emotions are less complicated than humans (which is part of their appeal). Drives me crazy when people treat dogs like their children and too many people think they shouldn't set boundaries for them (kids and dogs). Just my opinion....

Again, anecdotes of owners are not reliable proof of anything. I believe dogs have the capacity for emotions, but not because of what I personally have seen.

A lot of people project human motivations or feelings onto animals, which is another reason people like dogs and cats. A dog panting after playing looks like its smiling, so we assume it's happy, but we are projecting signals that express human happiness onto an animal that is decidedly not human. Dog and cat owners often think that their pet is "spiting them" when it goes to the bathroom inside, but 99% of the time, there is a much more logical explanation. They are projecting human motivations onto an animal that does not experience things in the same way.

J. Albers wrote: Anecdotes are not proof? And they're not qualitative? Oh no, I've been spending my whole career on shaky ground. Ahhhh. Oh wait, no, you just must have the world's most insensitive sarcasm meter. I mean really Quinn? Dogging on vegans and citing cold beer being amazing as a scientifically provable fact did not tip you off? Step down from the pedestal of taking yourself too seriously good man. Not everyone uses a climbing website to show off their scientific prowess. But you know, carry on Copernicus.

I mean, I knew you were joking about ripping on vegans and stuff, but the first part of your post seemed serious enough lol. And when you cite having a PhD in a response about animal behavior and cognition, you cant really rip on someone else for showing off "scientific prowess" lol. The whole discussion was about animal behavior and cognition, seemed "scientific" enough for me to post some actual science.

Either way, sorry I misinterpreted you I guess, haha.

Quinn Baker wrote: Again, anecdotes of owners are not reliable proof of anything. I believe dogs have the capacity for emotions, but not because of what I personally have seen. A lot of people project human motivations or feelings onto animals, which is another reason people like dogs and cats. A dog panting after playing looks like its smiling, so we assume it's happy, but we are projecting signals that express human happiness onto an animal that is decidedly not human. Dog and cat owners often think that their pet is "spiting them" when it goes to the bathroom inside, but 99% of the time, there is a much more logical explanation. They are projecting human motivations onto an animal that does not experience things in the same way.

Yes, very complex issue. In reality, we have no way to really prove other people have emotions (let alone animals), other than anecdotal evidence and observations. Again, limits of science.

And yes, many people treat animals as if they are people, which I agree is unrealistic (and sometimes pathologic)

Leave your dogs at home.

Dave Rone wrote:Leave your dogs at home.

LOL. I like it- simple and to the point...

I don't think it's a complex issue at all. Because you want to be with your dog doesn't mean I/others do. Dogs get bored at the crag because they are largely tied up (or should be) and ignored. Crags these days are too crowded for people to bring their dogs.

Leave'em at home.

Don Ferris wrote:Bring em to the crag! The more the merrier. However, understand a few things: I will pet your dog at my convenience without asking. I will feed your dog whatever I eat. If you're dog bites me, I will kick it until it runs away. If you're dog bites my dog, I will hit it with blunt object until it runs away.

I love dogs at the crag but understand peoples problems with them. I am a good owner with my dog at the crag, but this guy perfectly sums up my opinion of dogs out and about at all (except I will never feed a strangers dog). You need to understand why people react the way they do and not be confused when people don't like dogs. It doesn't mean you have to leave or leave you dog at home, its a free country on public land, but I have seen so many ridiculous fight about dogs. Just be chill.

Dave Rone wrote:I don't think it's a complex issue at all. Because you want to be with your dog doesn't mean I/others do. Dogs get bored at the crag because they are largely tied up (or should be) and ignored. Crags these days are too crowded for people to bring their dogs. Leave'em at home.

Whether dogs have emotions (and which ones) is complex.

Whether to bring them to a public place to annoy peole that prefer to not deal with them is pretty simple...

addison.william wrote: Annnnnd if you don't like animals, then you shouldn't go outside. :)

I think you missed the point.

They are animals by nature. They naturally have no idea how to behave around humans. It requires effort to teach them how to behave around humans. Most responsible dog owners do this and quite successfully. The unresponsible ones don't give a shit about anybody else and don't take the time to train them and then force the rest of us to put up with their dog "misbehaving" (really he's just doing what any animal would) and then claim that "oh dogs will be dogs". Of course they will if you are a lazy ass who doesn't take the time to train them.

Quinn Baker wrote: I mean, I knew you were joking about ripping on vegans and stuff, but the first part of your post seemed serious enough lol. And when you cite having a PhD in a response about animal behavior and cognition, you cant really rip on someone else for showing off "scientific prowess" lol. The whole discussion was about animal behavior and cognition, seemed "scientific" enough for me to post some actual science. Either way, sorry I misinterpreted you I guess, haha.

No worries, just giving you a hard time. And for the record, I don't take my academic "credentials" seriously at all...just part of the joke. Cheers.