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Lead falls.

Original Post
Alexander Gorobets · · Redmond, WA · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 35

Hello,
I have a question to people who do both alpine climbing and rock climbing.
I am kinda old school climber and try to never fall when climbing. From time to time I do alpine climbing on poor rock or on non vertical terrain or with long runouts. I also do ice and mix climbing. On all such kind of terrain you better not to take falls or take very short falls, otherwise a serious trauma is guaranteed.
On the other side I see sport climbers and climbers in a gym taking lead falls and many sources tell that in order to progress as a rock climber you should climb to the edge of your level and you should not afraid to take a fall, this will help you to become a better climber.
My question is - how to switch from one mental state when you climb sport and can take a fall to another state when you do alpine and should not fall. I somewhat afraid if I allow myself to fall in some situations I will somehow break my "do not fall" survival instincts.
Answers from personal experience appreciated.

P.S. I know that one should practice lead falls and soft catch - this is another topic.

Emmett Wynn · · Albuquerque · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 70

I chuff enough on hard (for me) sport and also do some enough alpine/trad to tell you that you won't mistake it. It's not hard to remember where your last pro is, whether it's a bolt at your feet in the gym or a manky fixed pin 40 feet below.

Your brain has a way of reminding you, the narratives being either "falling is still scary but I'll be fine" or "oh F*ck I better not f*cking fall f*ck"

Chris Schmidt · · Fruita, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

That's the beauty of sport is that you can climb much harder routes (almost) without worrying at all about safety. Now obviously you could still get seriously hurt, but generally speaking there is no such thing as "No Fall Zones" on sport routes.

On the other hand, trad and alpine routes that have No Fall Zones I personally do not seek out routes that are not well within my ability level (2 or even 3 grades below what I am capable of) and I simply tip my hat off to those that are bolder.

MIZ · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 75

I can relate to this concern. I have a hard time enjoying hard sport routes these days because after being so focused on trad/alpine climbing recently, I default to " no fall mode" when climbing. It can be exhausting to spend an entire pitch in a panic.

DavisMeschke Guillotine · · Pinedale, WY · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 225

I'm a relatively new climber, but was always told by mentors that falling is not an option in the mountains, or at all really. Usually it's not the gear that will fail but the rock, which is a huge unknown. It's also bad style to fall. I believe the best way I've heard it put is "free as can be". My falls in the mountains have been due to poor rock, snow or ice rather than not being able to climb the route or make the moves. But I'm also not climbing much harder than 5.8 rock-wise so I reckon take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

Hey, Spitfire, my experience is that bodies and brains are very, very good at this, fortunately! I used to do work that required being up on ladders, planks across ladders, badly rigged scaffoldings, etc., (in the days before "safety" harnesses), and twenty years later, if I'm standing on a three foot pillar to belay, tell my feet not to go anywhere, that's exactly what I will get. Are you able to switch hand skills from lead belay to top rope, or a top belay? Same thing. Go fly off some walls in the gym and have fun! When it's time to not fall, your body and brain will get the message. And, it's okay to not fall, anyway, so you're default mode is fine. It's your climb, not anyone else's. Best, H.

I forgot to add, perhaps a pair of shoes that are "allowed" to come off the rock, and only those shoes. Sonething to rituslize the brain training. When these tools are in my hands, I do this, when these other tools are being used, I do that, if that makes any sense?

Muscrat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 3,625
Chris Schmidt wrote:That's the beauty of sport is that you can climb much harder routes (almost) without worrying at all about safety. Now obviously you could still get seriously hurt, but generally speaking there is no such thing as "No Fall Zones" on sport routes. On the other hand, trad and alpine routes that have No Fall Zones I personally do not seek out routes that are not well within my ability level (2 or even 3 grades below what I am capable of) and I simply tip my hat off to those that are bolder.
I AM NOT A SNARF!
Nor am i snarfing...BUT....
ever climbed in the Pinnacles? Or really anywhere where it is ground up ethics?
Know why they call it 'ground up' climbing in Lover's Leap Tahoe? Oh, there are plenty of 'No Fall Zones', and i for one leave them alone (well, sometimes).
¢.02
Chris Schmidt · · Fruita, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

I have not climbed there and I reckon there are plenty of scary and dangerous "sport" routes out there. I'm imagining slabs with bolts every 50-60 feet like I have heard is the ethic in North Carolina.

However, these are not the routes people are taking whippers on as the OP is talking about. It is also a lot easier to stick clip a bolt than to "stick place" a piece and then clip that!

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Chris Schmidt wrote:I have not climbed there and I reckon there are plenty of scary and dangerous "sport" routes out there. I'm imagining slabs with bolts every 50-60 feet like I have heard is the ethic in North Carolina.
50 or 60 feet if you are lucky.

Imagine a whole pitch with absolutely no pro - just 200' shuts to shuts. Granted it's easy, but you're a long way off the ground and cheesegrating for 400' doesn't seem too appealing.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Chris Schmidt wrote:I have not climbed there and I reckon there are plenty of scary and dangerous "sport" routes out there. I'm imagining slabs with bolts every 50-60 feet like I have heard is the ethic in North Carolina. However, these are not the routes people are taking whippers on as the OP is talking about.
Two quick reminders:
1. There is no such thing as a dangerous sport route. The whole point of sport climbing is difficulty, not danger. If a (sport) route is dangerous, it was improperly bolted.

2. Just because a route has bolts on it doesn't make it a sport route. Lots and lots of what are now known as trad routes have bolts on them. Often they were put in with hand drills from poor stances and/or hanging off of hooks. It is not uncommon for them to be sparsely protected.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

So...are you saying that there's no such thing as an improperly bolted sport route? :/

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Ted Pinson wrote:So...are you saying that there's no such thing as an improperly bolted sport route? :/
No. Where did you get that idea? I specifically said if a sport route is dangerous, then it is improperly bolted. Sure, there may be sport routes were one or more bolts are in less than ideal locations, but that alone doesn't necessarily make the route dangerous.
Todd R · · Vansion, CO / WY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 45

Ted: re-read marcs 2 points. they are right on.

Bolts do not equal sport.

Of course, this is contentious.

Personally, I've climbed 200 foot slabs with 4 (possibly suspect) bolts with no options for gear placements (Splatte). I do not consider these sport leads.

Chris Schmidt · · Fruita, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

Regardless of whether or not the presence of bolts = sport route, it is generally fairly easy to look over a route and determine if there are areas where a fall would have high consequences. Obviously this may not be the case with multi pitch routes as you can't really see everything from the ground.

When there are high consequences this is when you need to be aware and DOWN-CLIMB before you get into trouble. If the climbing is in your comfort zone and/or your risk tolerance is higher than mine you go with the old mantra "when in doubt run it out".

Taking big (and multiple!) whips when the consequences are low can actually be quite fun.

Shepido · · CO · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 50

To the OP, I share your concern. I lead both ice and sport and I have thought a lot about how to mentally prepare for both. I've not arrived at a perfect answer yet, but I try and approach ice radically different even on top rope. I avoid falling at all cost even on TR, if I am totally pumped I will call for a take and rest, similarly on lead I will throw in a screw and rest instead of climbing through a pump. I try and treat every TR session as if I were leading - no moving up on crappy tools or crappy feet. When I do fall on TR, I get very angry with myself and re-evaluate why I fell. This is just my own approach and I find at least for me this is necessary to avoid carrying any of the sport climbing mentality over to ice climbing.

I think terrain and distance from last pro will always trigger your survival instincts no matter if it's sport climbing or something in the alpine.

I found if anything my cautious mindset kinda holds me back at the gym/sport crag, and most of my rock jock friends would call me very timid on rock. I'm certainly not a bold sport climber to be sure.

Finally, take some time to really enjoy sport climbing for what it is. It's nice and warm, you're hardly ever walking very far, there's almost no objective hazard. To me sport climbing is like a respite from all the stress of ice season or doing an alpine route where you are gram counting or measuring volume.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
Spitfire wrote:My question is - how to switch from one mental state when you climb sport and can take a fall to another state when you do alpine and should not fall.
^^^^
This is a great question.

Yes, there are the extremes: the properly bolted sport route (as mentioned before) versus a high-risk alpine route with a section where roping up is unwise. Indeed, there are routes where slipping as an individual is better than slipping and taking your partner with you.

Even so, either "end" begins to blur when considering a lead of an improperly bolted route (as already mentioned) or as pro becomes available or the climbing gets easier ... hasn't everyone sometimes not held onto the hand rail when they traversed some stairs?

I'll add that I think "improperly" is not quite the right term since many of us like some spice.

Anyway, the extremes can be connected in one broad continuum by varying the pro, difficulty, climb skills, etc.. For me, the goal has been to slowly build up experience in each part of the continuum while focusing on the part(s) of it that appeal to me.

I think it is a truly a dangerous trap to view it as "either this or that" ... unless the desire is to strictly stay at one of the extremes. For the rest of us, sometimes one might find one's self in a war where it is best to do as much killing as possible. Sometimes one might find one's self in a field of flowers where the best thing to do might be to make a wreath out of them. And sometimes it is somewhere in between. Stay in the moment.
Brandon.Phillips · · Portola, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 55

The original question is one about head space, so I want to address that:

I also learned to climb in the old school ethic. The guy who taught me to climb told me he had never taken a lead fall in his life. He climbed a lot of multi-pitch and alpine in 5.7- 8 range.

When I wanted to push my trad climbing harder, I also started doing a lot more sport climbing. I went out and looked for well bolted routes that were at my limit. I gained some fitness doing this, but also started to increase my confidence pulling hard moves. Feeling strong = confidence on harder ground. I may not have gotten all that stronger, but I went from onsighting 5.8/9 to 10.c on gear in a couple of months. I'm sure this was mostly mental.

Being able to evaluate your risk/ gear in the moment and make a decision about fall/ no fall zones is the most important lesson. I think you can better learn your limits by pushing yourself to the edge, which means falling, whether on bolts or good gear. If you know you can pull hard 5.11 moves, you are much more comfortable on no-fall 5.10.

I think you can't be truly comfortable climbing above gear until you have had gear catch you. If you climb serious routes a lot, its also fun to go out and try really hard in a lower consequence atmosphere (the well bolted sport route).

If you want to explore this more read The Trad Climbers Bible by John Long and Peter Croft. Those guys had all the same fears and doubts as us mortals.

Phil Sakievich · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 131

I think this mental switch of "I can't fall", to "might as well go for it" is based on 1) a rational decision that the fall is not clean/potentially dangerous or 2) just being scared to fall. Number 1 is a good thing and what you should get from alpine/run out trad climbing. Number 2 is mainly when you haven't taken a clean fall in a long time.

To answer the OP's original question, I don't think you will "break your survival instincts" if you allow yourself to fall on a clean sport route. IMO thinking that may just be a rationalization of your fear of falling that just comes from not falling on a while. No one likes to admit their just being chicken, but from time to time we all are. If you fall on a bunch of hard sport routes and then head back to the peaks you're not going to be suddenly bold/crazy and think "I can pull this dyno with 70' of run out and a cam placed behind a flake as my last piece". You don't lose your "sense of survival" (or as I would put it rational climbing judgement) after falling on TR, and so you probably won't feel that way after taking a sport fall.

My motto is if you're too scared to take a fall on a sport route, just TR it. You can always ask your belayer to let you have a little extra slack to simulate a sport fall if you want to re-expose yourself to falling. A good majority of sport routes can be accessed by climbing something easier, walking up, or rapping in. Most sport climbs are not established ground up, and so a top access is usually available.

The progression of risk while freeing a route is TR, Sport, Trad, Alpine, etc... You shouldn't lose your judgement while working the less risky styles, you should just be gaining strength and technique. Now if you just stop leading on gear, you may lose some finesse, jamming technique and skill at placing pieces, but your inner "Oh sh!t" meter should still be working.

Phil Sakievich · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 131
Brandon.Phillips wrote: Being able to evaluate your risk/ gear in the moment and make a decision about fall/ no fall zones is the most important lesson. I think you can better learn your limits by pushing yourself to the edge, which means falling, whether on bolts or good gear. If you know you can pull hard 5.11 moves, you are much more comfortable on no-fall 5.10. I think you can't be truly comfortable climbing above gear until you have had gear catch you. If you climb serious routes a lot, its also fun to go out and try really hard in a lower consequence atmosphere (the well bolted sport route).
+1
Alexander Gorobets · · Redmond, WA · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 35

Thanks everybody. Great exchange of opinions.
To "psakievich" - I think you are right. "Rationalization of fear of falling" - that's the point.
To "Old lady H" - what shoes you are talking about?

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306
Spitfire wrote: To "Old lady H" - what shoes you are talking about?
I'm pretty sure she's suggesting that you buy a different pair of shoes (that feel different than whatever you climb trad in) and use those shoes for the routes you consider safe to fall on. If they feel different you will learn to associate the feeling of those shoes with it being okay to fall. Then when you are not wearing those shoes you will perhaps maintain your 'no-fall' mindset.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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