Foster Falls, know before you go

To FosterFallsRanger -- Thanks for the reminder on the rules and regulations at Foster Falls. I hope you're aware that the negative comments in this thread are most likely not representative of the climbing community as a whole; most climbers don't feel the sense of entitlement that's coming across here.

To the posters who somehow feel outraged at the idea of being off the trail after dark, just a reminder that climbing in the south is a tenuous resource. If Foster Falls wasn't a state park, it would likely be privately-owned land posted with no-trespassing signs; and rather than pissing and moaning about personal responsibility and "our land," you'd be wishing you could climb there at all.

JL

yesrodcire wrote:How treacherous is this trail to the falls? Would a half rack and 30m rope be enough to safely navigate?

You do not need a rack and rope, but my point is that Foster Falls is a popular destination for non-climbers as well. The rules are meant to keep them safe too.

It's obvious you aren't familiar with the area so please refrain from making snide remarks to the Ranger's announcement. Climber's actually have really great access at Foster Falls, including two separate trails just for us to get to the cliff base easier. Please don't jeopardize the relationship that the Rangers have with the local climbing community just to rant about hiking in the dark.

yesrodcire wrote:Yep agreed its a shame public lands are closed to the public when it gets dark out.... Maybe if we installed nightlights Big Brother would be okay with me walking through public lands while its dark out?

A sense of entitlement is the worst possible thing one can have when it comes to climbing and access.

yesrodcire wrote: Yes but that isn't the situation, we could make up lots of imaginary situations if you want to go that route. As it stands now its a State Park that doesn't allow you to be on the property once the sun goes down.

Yes, you are allowed on the property after dark. You can camp in the Father Adamz site, or on the managed campground at the entrance to the park. You can not wander around the trails, which skirt the cliff top in several places.

You are making a much bigger deal out of this than it is.

Folks, I really appreciate the attention this thread has been getting. I want everyone to know that I do understand your frustration with the rule. I too have spent a lot of time climbing at Foster Falls (before I was a ranger there). I am aware that most climbers are pretty sure-footed. That said, I am just trying to do my job. I do not make the rules. Some of you have touched on one of the big reasons rules like that are in place. Climbers are not the only user group to visit our park. Many people that come to Foster Falls are not nearly as capable of navigating a trail as climbers are. If any of you have actually been out to Fosters and met me, then you know I am a pretty reasonable guy. I have no desire to go out right at dark and start slinging citations. That's no fun for anybody involved. I just want people to know the rules exist. If you have any questions feel free to send me a message.

FosterFallsRanger wrote:Folks, I really appreciate the attention this thread has been getting. I want everyone to know that I do understand your frustration with the rule. I too have spent a lot of time climbing at Foster Falls (before I was a ranger there). I am aware that most climbers are pretty sure-footed. That said, I am just trying to do my job. I do not make the rules. Some of you have touched on one of the big reasons rules like that are in place. Climbers are not the only user group to visit our park. Many people that come to Foster Falls are not nearly as capable of navigating a trail as climbers are. If any of you have actually been out to Fosters and met me, then you know I am a pretty reasonable guy. I have no desire to go out right at dark and start slinging citations. That's no fun for anybody involved. I just want people to know the rules exist. If you have any questions feel free to send me a message.

Thanks man. People forget that Fosters is a big multi-use area and that the majority of people who go are not climbers. Rules have to apply to everyone.

How dangerous is this trail in TN that it isn't safe for the general public to be on at night? Honestly just curious, I have no idea but from what you all say it sounds like a pretty epic trail if people are continually getting stranded on it at night? How often are night rescues that it must be closed for ever?

It's in TN.

yesrodcire wrote:How dangerous is this trail [blah blah blah]

Maybe you should go there sometime and see for yourself. Many people consider it reasonable to have actually visited an area before making comments on it so they don't come across as ignorant and uninformed.

JL

saxfiend wrote: Maybe you should go there sometime and see for yourself. Many people consider it reasonable to have actually visited an area before making comments on it so they don't come across as ignorant and uninformed. JL

Lol, its in Tennessee.... Pretty sure it isn't to gnar to be traveled safely at night! Again, how many night time rescues were done by SAR in the past 20 years that this trail needed to be closed? I asked an honest question and you provided zero information and insisted on name calling. Your an admin right, perhaps you need to review rule number 1 which would include avoiding name calling?

yesrodcire wrote: Lol, its in Tennessee.... Pretty sure it isn't to gnar to be traveled safely at night! Again, how many night time rescues were done by SAR in the past 20 years that this trail needed to be closed? I asked an honest question and you provided zero information and insisted on name calling. Your an admin right, perhaps you need to review rule number 1 which would include avoiding name calling?

I don't see why anyone needs to justify this rule for you. You come across as argumentative and defiant. Even if the rules seem silly and unnecessary, they're easy to follow, help keep the climbers' reputation decent, and relationship with the land managers good.

And I've never been there either!

FosterFallsRanger wrote:The reason trails close at dark is to ensure the safety of all of our visitors. We have had many people sustain injuries while hiking after dark. The result of which is usually a full scale rescue by Rangers and local rescue squads. Closing the trails at dark is a preventative measure in place to help prevent unnecessary injuries and rescues. The rule is not intended to be restrictive or limit access. It is purely a safety measure.

Government makes rules for money and liability. Just like a corporation.
Government hardly ever makes rules for safety.

I realize that this ranger is being the "nice guy" but does not work for "The Nice Guy Company".

I just want to make it clear that all the trails are closed at dark, not just the trail to Foster Falls. This is a statewide rule. If you are truly upset by this, and live in the state of Tennessee, you can contact the representatives for our area in the state legislature and explain to them that you are unhappy. This is not meant to be a snarky or disrespectful response to all the comments above. This is legitimately how to get things changed.

That said, myself and all the other rangers of South Cumberland State Park greatly appreciate the kind words some of you have posted. Our job would be impossibly difficult without the support and respect of our visitors. Thank you for abiding by the rules and helping us keep our park beautiful.

Rules are there for a reason. There's no way to write a law that says "don't be a dick," but the folks who tend to abuse or mar the landscapes we love often operate late.

Tipton wrote:Are climbers hiking out 30 minutes after sunset that often? I don't think that's a regular occurrence. I think you're missing the intent of the rule. It's not targeting climbers who are coming out a little late but rather people showing up late and going in. They don't want hikers wandering down the steep trail to the falls after dark or starting out on the trail to Father Adamz after dark. I'm all for personal responsibility and taking care of your own business but unfortunately that's not the society we live in.

All the time! Maybe you took one last go in the cool evening conditions (this is the South!), maybe it took a while to get to the top of the final route, or maybe cleaning the route turned into a logistical nightmare. The Foster Falls hike is pretty short, around 20 minutes for the farthest cliff, but if you get to the top of the route just before dark, or just after dark, you could easily be walking 30 minutes after sunset.

Also, although you obviously wouldn't be forced to sleep there, a major downpour could easily drive you into a cave for shelter and delay your walk.

One has to hope that the rangers would engage in some forbearance, but the fact that this is being announced so publicly and that the ranger's office is actually engaged in explaining that their hands are tied makes me concerned that there is enthusiasm for a renewed level of strictness in enforcement coming from some level of government. I don't live in Tennessee and have included Foster Falls in some previous climbing trips, but I will probably just stick to the Obed when I go back.

FosterFallsRanger wrote:The reason trails close at dark is to ensure the safety of all of our visitors. We have had many people sustain injuries while hiking after dark. The result of which is usually a full scale rescue by Rangers and local rescue squads. Closing the trails at dark is a preventative measure in place to help prevent unnecessary injuries and rescues. The rule is not intended to be restrictive or limit access. It is purely a safety measure.

Perhaps people who can't figure out how to walk down a trail in the dark should stay at home, so that nanny state doesn't feel the need to babysit the rest of us...

Stagg54 wrote: Perhaps people who can't figure out how to walk down a trail in the dark should stay at home, so that nanny state doesn't feel the need to babysit the rest of us...

Also did anyone happen to think that perhaps the new rule may cause more rescues because people who feel the need to use the trails at night will now attempt to do it without a headlamp for fear of getting fined? Just a thought...

A little off topic because I didn't have any issues with the rules when I was there, just want to say that I loved climbing there and hope to go back someday.

Stagg54 wrote: Also did anyone happen to think that perhaps the new rule may cause more rescues because people who feel the need to use the trails at night will now attempt to do it without a headlamp for fear of getting fined? Just a thought...

Do you feel that it's similar to how in Yosemite, you aren't allowed to BASE jump, so they do it at night?

JoeGaribay wrote: Do you feel that it's similar to how in Yosemite, you aren't allowed to BASE jump, so they do it at night?

Don't know a whole lot about basejumping or the situation in the valley, but it seems like some similar unintended consequences...