Passive Gear Only Trad Rack

JoeGaribay wrote: I trust your experience and recommendations as others have highly recommended the same. I'm not trying to go passive only for long. I will slowly build a rack of cams or buy in bulk when the time is right. For now I really do want to stay passive for a little bit and teach myself how to place passive pro quickly and efficiently. I just don't want to buy a bunch of cams and get lazy with learning passive placements. I also understand that following a good mentor is key to learning placements and I will not over look the importance of this. Thank you for the info.

I support your decision to go passive initially. You will learn to read the subtleties of the rock, rather than "slam it in and go" as newbies too often do when they load up a rack of shiny cams.

JoeGaribay wrote:What about doubles in hexes and nuts? I feel I'll run into pitches where I'll need more than one of any given size. Would buying doubles be neccessary or should I stick to singles and buy a double in what ever size is recommended on any given route?

No. Not for hexes. I have done the exact same thing you are doing with the all passive rack. I did it about a year ago. The DMM Wallnuts, Alloy Offsets, Peanuts, and Torque Nuts are all great, but don't double up on hexes. I did this and I was a mistake.

I really like the Torque Nuts. I find them useful in many places, either at belays or where I can get a good solid stance. But two sets is just not worth carrying. I don't usually sell gear, mainly because I find it a hassle. But as my fiance already has a full set of torque nuts, and I have two, I'd be willing to sell you a set at a very fair price. If you're interested, PM me.

I've climbed for 15+ years usually placing a LOT more passive gear than cams (except in the Creek). My favorite nuts are Wild Country Rocks, but the standard BD style are also fine. In my experience, the DMM nuts that everybody are raving about are easier to get stuck. Absolutely avoid Metolius curved nuts; the worst nuts I've ever seen and played with. I'm not a fan of large offset nuts either, but maybe I just haven't climbed in areas where they really shine. Small brass offsets (sometimes called RP) might become useful on the harder grades in some areas.
As for hexes, the Metolius curved hex beats the standard straight hex and the Wild Country any day. Never buy a complete set of hexes. Only buy a few that are larger than your biggest nuts.
If you go with tricams, start out with pink, red, and brown. Smaller than pink are a mess to place and clean (since you can't get your fingers on the side of them) and larger than brown feel a bit more wobbly. I have never played with the really huge ones.
I would start with one set of nuts (BD size 2-13), then double up in the mid range (4-9), maybe three larger hexes, and the pink, red, and brown tricam. Add a few RPs (smaller than #4 mentioned above) if your area takes them.

A set of larger RPs (or modern equivalent), set of nuts with doubles in the 4-9 range, and hexes 8-11 will get you up most routes in SoCal.

Gunkiemike wrote: I support your decision to go passive initially. You will learn to read the subtleties of the rock, rather than "slam it in and go" as newbies too often do when they load up a rack of shiny cams.

+1 More support here. Early on when I started out leading, I would be afraid to burn up my cams so I would find myself leading whole pitches only passive and I never settled for sketch to make it happen. Learning to find multi-directional passive placements for your first couple of pieces is also an awesome skill to develop. I would add the pink and red tri-cams to your rack. While technically not totally passive....... well come on.

Going all passive is fine, as long as you aren't expecting to be leading more than moderates. I did it at first, because I had a difficult time trusting cams at first.

If you're going all passive you'll do well with 2 sets of nuts, a set of hexes, and some tricams.
For the nuts, get 1 set of wallnuts, one set of alloy offsets, and a set of peenuts. For the hexes, get the cheapest you can find as you will likely find yourself using them very little down the road. For tricams start with pink and red. If you end up liking them get black, brown, and the small blue.

If you search hard enough, you can usually find cheap hexes and tri-cams on here with little to no use.

Xocomil wrote:I don't think having cams will stop you from being good at placing passive pro. You WILL encounter climbs that require mostly nuts to protect. But the opposite is also true: parallel cracks are best protected by cams, and you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you had to avoid these because of a lack of gear. That being said, it seems like you are well informed, so go crazy and have fun. I know some great climbs up here in the tahoe region that take mostly (or all) passive gear, so let me know if you get to the area.

Didn't think about the benefit of cams in parallel cracks. Good point. Id love to climb up there. I'll hit you up when I get the chance

Patrik wrote: I've climbed for 15+ years usually placing a LOT more passive gear than cams (except in the Creek). My favorite nuts are Wild Country Rocks, but the standard BD style are also fine. In my experience, the DMM nuts that everybody are raving about are easier to get stuck. Absolutely avoid Metolius curved nuts; the worst nuts I've ever seen and played with. I'm not a fan of large offset nuts either, but maybe I just haven't climbed in areas where they really shine. Small brass offsets (sometimes called RP) might become useful on the harder grades in some areas. As for hexes, the Metolius curved hex beats the standard straight hex and the Wild Country any day. Never buy a complete set of hexes. Only buy a few that are larger than your biggest nuts. If you go with tricams, start out with pink, red, and brown. Smaller than pink are a mess to place and clean (since you can't get your fingers on the side of them) and larger than brown feel a bit more wobbly. I have never played with the really huge ones. I would start with one set of nuts (BD size 2-13), then double up in the mid range (4-9), maybe three larger hexes, and the pink, red, and brown tricam. Add a few RPs (smaller than #4 mentioned above) if your area takes them.

Great advice. Nice to learn about what doesn't work well and why. Just as informative as knowing what to buy.

How can you have a hex on a passive only gear rack? A hex can be placed active or passive.

There is a lot of good info on here. I personally prefer cams, even for alpine, but if you're dead set on passive gear only, here is my take: DMM makes good stuff. I have a set off their offsets, peenuts, and torque nuts. Torque nuts only come in a few sizes, but they are the useful sizes (start where nuts leave off)and I prefer them to the more traditional shape of other brands (still rarely ever carry them). Peenuts are my favorite small stoppers, they seem like the best balance of durability and holding power. Alloy offsets are great, but they are better as a second set, and as mentioned before harder for beginners to place and clean. I am a big tri-cam fan, but mostly for sandstone, and really only use black, pink and red. The white is too tiny, and I rarely carry bigger than red. Blue, brown and purple occasionally end up on my rack, but cams are generally better in those sizes. When i started leading gear climbs, i bought a used rack of HB cams from a friend (which i had reslung) to decide if i wanted to build a full rack. They eventually got replaced, but still end up coming to IC, and were a relatively cheap way to get started. Good luck!

ViperScale wrote:How can you have a hex on a passive only gear rack? A hex can be placed active or passive.

I wasn't aware that hexes were active and passive. You could say that tricams don't belong here either. My 'passive only' question was more directed towards gear other than cams. I would accept ball nut suggestions as well. My focus was more on saving money and learning passive placements. But thank you for helping me understand that passive pro can also be active.

The reason hexes are six sided is so that they set in a crack with two faces flush with the wall which will put the cable/sling at an angle so when it is pulled on it tries to rotate the hex causing it to grip the rock better. Hexes can be placed in parallel cracks, just don't expect to climb a splitter with hexes only. But when you get that one stretch of parallel crack on a route that is otherwise not parallel, know that you can get lucky and a hex might fit well (they don't have as much of a range in parallel cracks).

And I agree about the Metolious nuts, I have one I found, tried placing it once and it was a huge pain to get back out. Their shape lends them to get stuck easier.

As for the claim that having cams will make you safer, I completely disagree. Cams are not necessarily safer. There are some placements (mostly parallel cracks, but not strictly) where a cam will be better than a hex, but likewise there are some places where a hex is better than a cam. Cams are not safer, they are just faster to place. Both are bomber if placed correctly.

Hexes are going to be cheaper to get started, it's hard to start climbing with only 2 cams but for the same price you can get a full set of hexes (probably cheaper). Once you do get cams then keep your hexes as light weight doubles.

Brady3 wrote:The reason hexes are six sided is so that they set in a crack with two faces flush with the wall which will put the cable/sling at an angle so when it is pulled on it tries to rotate the hex causing it to grip the rock better. Hexes can be placed in parallel cracks, just don't expect to climb a splitter with hexes only. But when you get that one stretch of parallel crack on a route that is otherwise not parallel, know that you can get lucky and a hex might fit well (they don't have as much of a range in parallel cracks). And I agree about the Metolious nuts, I have one I found, tried placing it once and it was a huge pain to get back out. Their shape lends them to get stuck easier. As for the claim that having cams will make you safer, I completely disagree. Cams are not necessarily safer. There are some placements (mostly parallel cracks, but not strictly) where a cam will be better than a hex, but likewise there are some places where a hex is better than a cam. Cams are not safer, they are just faster to place. Both are bomber if placed correctly. Hexes are going to be cheaper to get started, it's hard to start climbing with only 2 cams but for the same price you can get a full set of hexes (probably cheaper). Once you do get cams then keep your hexes as light weight doubles.

Not safer than nuts in terms of force held or anything like that, but rather that they will work where nuts will not (and vice versa). That's why a full rack has active and passive pro - for safety.

JoeGaribay wrote:I know this has partly been covered in different threads but I'm curious how you would build a rack if you only used passive protection. What would it consist of? How many sets of stoppers and hexes etc...? Your favorite brands and sizes? I'd like to put a passive rack together that would get me through various multipitch routes. Thank you for the input.

I'm from the land of passive pro (UK). Most routes here use 4 wires to every cam (except on the grit).

A typical passive only rack for a beginner would be:

2 sets of wired nuts (WC sizes 1 to 8), then one 9 and 10. Hex's on tape from the same size as the wired 9 to as big as WC make. One set of those wired nuts will be offsets. Brand doesn't matter.

Two 120cm slings.

Draws = 6 alpine, 6 draws (18cm ish).

As experienced is gained and harder routes are climbed most people add in a set of cams. Initially about BD C4 0.75-3 size, then small and bigger as they have the money. One set of RPs is normally added in at the came time.

Micro-cams and a second set of RPs added once you hit 5.11 (UK E3)

It is very rare to carry two sets of cams (we just don't have long simple cracks).

Second set of cams bought just before that first trip to USA.

Third set of cams borrowed from friend for that second trip to USA once you find out just how many cams it takes to aid up El Cap after failing the year before.

Hope that helps

JoeGaribay wrote: I would accept ball nut suggestions as well.

Now your really making it hard on yourself hahah. Ballnutz aren't cheap either. I'm sure they have their place but I think you can go quite a while without em.

Trango makes them.

I agree with what's been said about the alloy offsets being a secondary set or supplementary to a regular set of nuts. My offsets and peanuts are to compliment the set of wallnuts. The torque nuts start right about where the wallnuts end and whilst they can be placed actively, in a camming action, this can be fiddly and is easiest to do using a bump or edge as a pivot point.

The tricams I use most are the black, pink and red. But the brown and blue/purple still see regular use. I have the larger sizes too (I think up to a 4) but they see less use. I have a white and have used it a few times. On the occasions I've used it, nothing else would fit anywhere close, but they are what I would consider a marginal piece because they're so tiny.

I've got some pics of shiny new tricams and hexes in placements. I'll try and dig them up.

Here they are. This was from back when I first got this gear.

Shout out to tube chocks if you wanna get passive on the wide!

Also, to the conversation as to the merits of learning with passive pro vs active. I've always been of the opinion that a beginner can experience real benefits from learning to place passive pro first for a couple of reasons.

1. Baseline knowledge of passive placements, too many climbers have an unhealthy reliance on active pro. It's certainly quicker to place, but in many instances (especially in small sizes) a passive placement is imminently more secure. By learning to place passive gear first, one has a more keen eye for those placements, and is less likely to default to a cam when a stopper is preferred.

2. Better ability to find rest stances. Given the more time-consuming nature of placing passive gear correctly, a new climber is forced to seek out more secure stances to place pro from. Once said climber has graduated to a mixed active/passive rack, they are more able to pick appropriate stances from which to place for the remainder of their climbing career.

3. Lighter travel int he alpine. A climber that is proficient and comfortable with passive pro is better able to safely protect alpine routes without lugging up a steel girdle of doubles when there's a 10 mile approach before the climbing of the day begins. More stoppers and less cams frees up space and weight for additional layers, food and water, which could be the difference between a fun outing and a type-2 suffer-fest.

Passive gear that I carry in addition to cams:
DMM Peenuts 1-5. The small nuts that I use most.
BD Stoppers 4-11. Classic symmetric design; I don't find a lot of placements for the very smallest (sizes 1-3), and for the very largest I'm usually plugging a cam instead.
DMM Alloy offsets 7-9. Again, the larger sizes I would usually grab an offset cam instead.
Tricams black, pink and sometimes red.

Passive gear that I would carry if I suddenly decided to leave all my cams behind:
BD Stoppers 12-13.
DMM Alloy offsets 10-11.
Hexes, I suppose, if I must. I've only used BD, and dislike the smallest sizes compared to nuts. Maybe use 4-11. I've heard a lot of positive things about torque nuts though.