The correlation between often asking for beta and one's onsight ability

After climbing with and observing many climbers over the years I believe that those who often ask for beta early never develop the same onsight ability as those climbers that try extensively to get the sequence on their own first before asking for beta.

Perhaps this is so obvious that it isn't worth discussing. It seems that trying all the wrong ways first helps keep the right sequence in your brain better and thus helps your onsight ability.

What do you think?

I thought about this when someone posted how to boulder better and the answer was climb with a better partner who can show you the moves. I agree with this for a beginner climber and also as an intermediate climber provided you tried many sequences on your own first before getting the beta.

I have always loved onsighting and always hated beta.

Kris Hampton seems to agree with you.

powercompanyclimbing.com/bl…

I think the higher correlation is between how much onsighting one does and how skilled one is at onsighting.

Civilization didn't become what it is today by everyone reinventing the wheel...

Reboot said "Civilization didn't become what it is today by everyone reinventing the wheel"

That actually is a perfect analogy that I can argue helps my point. To make technical inventions it really helps to understand all the science behind the current technology. You can learn by going to class and listening to someone tell you or show you how to understand technology.
But almost everyone knows that you learn technical science much better by doing problems on your own (although it helps to get the lecture first). The real learning comes in working through the solutions on your own.

I work in technical research inventing things.

I believe this to be the opposite. My years of project climbing, specifically working sequences until I had the perfect one, allowed me to narrow down possibilities for movement given a particular crux. I think goes also with knowing/receiving beta. When you work with good beta, you know the best way through a move. All of that adds to your repertoire of movement which you take with you on your onsight attempts.

Ryan
It's possible we are thinking the same thing. It sounds like you have done tons of working out moves on your own - as have I. I had been projecting a local sport route for 6 months before an injury in 2006. I had it down to 2 falls.

The key to me is when you receive that good beta. If you receive the good beta after trying the moves many other ways I think it goes into memory banks much better.

If you receive good beta before you ever try any other way first of all it's not an onsight and takes some adventure away in my opinion. And secondly it doesn't go into the memory banks as good, I believe.

I am not totally against beta - I am for trying the move many times first in many different ways, then getting beta if necessary.

AFTER I do a route I love watching others and their sequence.

Lou Hibbard wrote:I work in technical research inventing things.

Climbing is a lot simpler than whatever technical research you are involved in (at least I hope). Onsighting is about coming up w/ reasonable beta quickly as well as predicting hold types, not deep problem solving. The hardest part about learning climbing techniques & come up w/ good beta is actually in developing good body awareness.

I would say that receiving beta can help you learn engrams of movement, which would help your onsights. It depends on your current level of climbing, I would think. A beginning climber should ask for beta much more often, since they have no reference level for what sequences require what types of movement. A more advanced climber would probably only ask for beta on problems that have tricky sequences or weird nuances, or (if in the gym) are set deceptively.

Basically, I guess I think that as your climbing ability and experience increases, you should find that you need to ask for beta less. But, each time you ask for beta, you should learn something that makes you less likely to ask for beta next time.

reboot wrote: Climbing is a lot simpler ...

Of course it is, but it can always get more complicated ;)
I love watching World Cup Bouldering, it is really amazing how many participants get locked into a sequence, when there is a better way - nicely demonstrated by some lonesome person who solves a problem quickly and elegantly, approaching it with different beta. Perhaps there are many ways of climbing a route/boulder, not all of them as efficient as others, and trying something else when your ways works, is not an attempt many people do.

I love climbing with a way stronger, but vertically challenged person - the way she does things is totally alien for me, but I always make an effort to try. Usually it does not work, but sometimes it does; I feel that even those failed attempts expand my bag of technical tricks.

amarius wrote: I love watching World Cup Bouldering, it is really amazing how many participants get locked into a sequence, when there is a better way - nicely demonstrated by some lonesome person who solves a problem quickly and elegantly, approaching it with different beta.

That's because you only have 5 minutes and a limited amount of effort to experiment w/ other beta, and the problems were set w/ an intended sequence (not always the best). Sometimes you just have to be lucky. Get a bunch of people together working on a real boulder problem & everybody (that has the ability) will send quicker.

I think having less beta may help but what matters more is learning how to quickly and efficiently identify the best hold either by sight or feel, and this is especially true for footholds.

There are very few routes (with the exception of boulder problems) I've encountered that I could redpoint but not onsight, so I would consider myself an onsight climber. That being said, I never do any projecting, or at least not with any intention.

I can think of maybe 3 climbs where I couldn't climb it without beta and could climb it with beta. If I'm asking for beta, it probably means I can't climb the route.

I haven't seen enough climbers develop to have any useful experience on this topic with regards to climbing. But my general experience with people and problem solving is that an individual can either apply some measure of critical thinking, or they can't.

So is it possible that rather than the issue being new climbers who ask for beta never learn how to onsight well, it's actually new climbers who aren't good at problem solving ask for beta a lot?

It depends more on the person. Not everyone is the same, not everyone has the same IQ, etc. Sure someone that isn't very good and practices alot will be better than an average natural person that doesn't practice.

There is always going to be limit to how much better you can get based on your natural ability.

It always annoyed me how at schools they are always telling people just try hard and you can do it. Not true and never will be. Some people will just naturally be able to do stuff better because they were born with it.

That doesn't mean you can't get better by trying and anytime you practice something you will get better. Just go out there and do what you think is fun and don't worry so much about others. If you are big into onsighting than practicing on sighting and studying on the subject will be what you want to do. If you just want to get to the top than go ask for beta.

I am really good at on sighting but than I think it has to do with the way I was born to think and is related to how I problem solve (I am a software dev so it is all similar in the way I process a problem). I also will always ask for beta if someone is there to take into account how I will attempt a problem but everyone is different and with a neg ape index sometimes I have to find my own way.

I believe there is a 100% negative correlation between receiving beta and achieving an onsight.

Rich Liang wrote: True, If you get beta then its a flash.

No,then its a "beta flash" ... a FLASH is when you walk up to the climb, with no knowledge of it, or its reputation and climb without falling.

I figure only about 5% of the sport climbing population even cares about this stuff (flashing, the Red Point, 2nd try etc...)I do, because to me, your on-site ability is a real measurement of you as a climber.

I think Ryans statement ... ""All of that adds to your repertoire of movement which you take with you on your onsight attempts."" is so true and to the point about how one becomes a better climber.

What I really hate is having somebody start yelling beta at me..... or when you are sitting there and some clown is yelling beta at others...time for the music.

Rich Liang wrote: True, If you get beta then its a flash.

;)