What do you want to see in a multi-pitch climbing pack?

Yeah ok. I haven't explored welded seams yet but the technique is definitely on the radar. Do you have a link to the hand held seam welder you're looking at? There's another company in town making ballast bags for wakeboard boats that has offered up their RF welder to experiment on. That would be pretty next level.

Speaking of, if you're thinking of buying a seam welder, are you working on any projects?

Do you have an arcteryx alpha fl pack? Do you like the simple suspension? Our big medicine pack has a suspension that's pretty similar to a golite jam which isn't far off the alpha fl. I think people who are used to full on internal frame might be wanting more support but, like just about any frameless pack, if you pack it well, it's great.

Tosch Roy wrote:Yeah ok. I haven't explored welded seams yet but the technique is definitely on the radar. Do you have a link to the hand held seam welder you're looking at? There's another company in town making ballast bags for wakeboard boats that has offered up their RF welder to experiment on. That would be pretty next level. Speaking of, if you're thinking of buying a seam welder, are you working on any projects? Do you have an arcteryx alpha fl pack? Do you like the simple suspension? Our big medicine pack has a suspension that's pretty similar to a golite jam which isn't far off the alpha fl. I think people who are used to full on internal frame might be wanting more support but, like just about any frameless pack, if you pack it well, it's great.

I personally don't but my climbing partner does and it's a privilege to use it i really would highly rate it, the suspension is fine providing you don't go over 30 pounds the foam carries really nice for how low profile it is, if it was integrated into some kind of vest it would be super bad ass. The alpha FL belongs to a friend but i have used it plenty. ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1706858…
The type i'm looking at are made for roofing, radio frequency and ultra sonic wielding would put you technologically ahead of everyone else in the market and you don't have to replace all of those all ready expensive machines with more expensive machines.
I really wish i could start a project right now but i couldn't bring my self to settle for stitches and improvised bartacks, i found a tiny ultra sonic wielding gun that to me looks like next gen bartacking it only does a little circle about 1cm in diameter, it was like £200 if i remember correctly. All the seams would need to be finished off with bartacks any way due to the relatively low shear strength (if that's the right word). The tools are too expensive for me at the moment as is sourcing decent PVC coated nylon best i can find is polyester (which may actually be better due to the high abrasion and UV resistance) but yeah, being unemployed and about to go to France for months is not a good time to start a investment heavy project. If you could get a RF or ultra sonic wielder it would put you ahead of the pack in so many regards, you would be ahead of black diamond, arc'teryx, osprey, etc, the only other company that does wielded seams on backpacks are metolius, you would have a huge technical and financial advantage over all most every other manufacturer.
The air gun i chose would be only useful for PU, PVC or Urethane coated fabrics so a proper ultra sonic or RF wielder would be the way to go, maybe you could even go into garment manufacturing :O super light and practically seamless. would need to look at the strength and weight difference between wielded and fused (think bemas) seams. If you do decide on experimenting with the RF wielder feel free to send me a prototype :P (or maybe just some pictures) I would really love to see how the seams turn out.

Tosch Roy wrote:What do you want to see in a multi-pitch climbing pack?

Nothing extra. No bells and whistles.

1. Sturdy fabric. It should be OK to haul climbing pack.

2. Flat surfaces without daisy chains, pockets, etc. They will be catching everything and anything around.

3. One handed opening and closure.

4. Dirt protective closure.

5. Inner mesh pocket for snacks.

6. Designated convenient headlamp compartment. For sure, headlamp cannot turn on by itself in it.

7. Haul loop(s).

Pavel Burov wrote: Nothing extra. No bells and whistles. 1. Sturdy fabric. It should be OK to haul climbing pack. 2. Flat surfaces without daisy chains, pockets, etc. They will be catching everything and anything around. 3. One handed opening and closure. 4. Dirt protective closure. 5. Inner mesh pocket for snacks. 6. Designated convenient headlamp compartment. For sure, headlamp cannot turn on by itself in it. 7. Haul loop(s).

Get a headlamp with a mechanical lock out ...

It will also prevent parasitic drain

;)

..or flip one of the batteries until you need it

I just tossed my second favorite crag pack of all time, or I'd upload some photos for you. It was a Wild Country, made from a fairly heavy ballistics cloth. It lasted at least 15 years with me, and I bought it used. The features were:

- Easily haulable
- had a lid
-which had a zip pocket on the inside
- waist belt (which can be tucked into a horizontal pocket )
- side pockets (that were accessible via diagonal zippers, about mid height. They did not protrude out from the main body of the pack... Think slash pockets vs. cargo pockets)
- flexible removable plastic back frame
- three daisies, two with axe loops at the bottom, and one daisy up the center with a big loop at the top end for clipping a sling to for hauling

My favorite crag pack of all time was an REI, which I liked because it ACTUALLY FIT length wise. It also had a top lid and was a top loader. As someone else mentioned the REI pack had two long compression straps on each side which worked like a champ for tying on a rope. With a waist belt it was better than my Wild Country for cross-country skiing and mountaineering, but it would have been aced as a straight up climbing pack had my Wild Country been long enough to fit. The good points of the REI:

- skiable length of pack (top at the shoulders, very plain waist belt at the bottom which sets below the pelvic crests)
- narrow!
- compression straps

If you want a drawing of each pack, I'll gladly send one, as I doubt I can find pics of them on line.

Can the arcteryx alpha FL 45L pack double as a backpacking pack?

Mostafa wrote:Can the arcteryx alpha FL 45L pack double as a backpacking pack?

It depends how long (and light) you decide to go, if you go light enough i see no reason why you couldn't (there are much more comfortable options).

Mostafa wrote:Can the arcteryx alpha FL 45L pack double as a backpacking pack?

its really a ~35L with an extension collar

if your gear is light and small enough its fine for backpacking

but like many UL backpacks, most of the weight will be on the shoulders

;)

I would call the FL45 closer to 40L with a 10-15L extension collar. Without extending it, I can get slightly more in it than my rolled top HMG Ice Pack 2400 (39L). I know the specs say it's 33-45L, but I think they are being way too conservative. Similarly, the FL30 specs say it's 23-30L, but I'd call it 26L with a much smaller 5L collar.

I've barely used my 45, but my FL30 has been used as my crag pack a few times a week since it was first available for sale. I've destroyed the shock cord and worn a few holes in the front near the bottom. I would say it's pretty average in durability, but maybe above average relative to its weight. It's certainly not a pack you can expect to last for 5 or 10 years of regular use.

Brian Abram wrote:I would call the FL45 closer to 40L with a 10-15L extension collar. Without extending it, I can get slightly more in it than my rolled top HMG Ice Pack 2400 (39L). I know the specs say it's 33-45L, but I think they are being way too conservative. Similarly, the FL30 specs say it's 23-30L, but I'd call it 26L with a much smaller 5L collar. I've barely used my 45, but my FL30 has been used as my crag pack a few times a week since it was first available for sale. I've destroyed the shock cord and worn a few holes in the front near the bottom. I would say it's pretty average in durability, but maybe above average relative to its weight. It's certainly not a pack you can expect to last for 5 or 10 years of regular use.

It doesnt have the extra pockets or brain that most packs include in the volume

The main body without the extension is a bit larger than my 30L scrambler

Dead bird calls it 33L unextended and i would say thats accurate

Its definately not 45L without the extension

It is quite light though and the shoulder straps are the best ive tried

;)

We'll split the difference. I literally just used a Nalgene to measure water to fill my FL45 up. Without the extension collar, it closed comfortably with 36 liters of water in it. At 37 liters, some came out the top when the main bag was pulled entirely shut. It was too hard to keep it stable for me to start filling the extension collar.

FWIW, filled with water, I noticed some drops of water beading on the outside of the upper seams. Pretty dang water resistant, but maybe not truly drybag watertight.

~35 L is fair

i dont expect it to be dry bag waterproof ...

the "waterproofness" depends on the hydrostatic head, seam construction/sealing and the pressure on it .... and a full pack of water has quite a bit of pressure

for a good read on how various "dry bags" are cr@p anyways read jim woods old articles and test

jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Dry…

as a side note thats why some folks have problems with tents especially after some usage when the HH of the fly or floor degrade .....

jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Sil…

;)

frank bonnevie wrote: basically a ski touring pack.

+1 on that point. There is more overlap than people realize.

I actually use BD's Kode 30 for multipitch and route development. It's designed for ski touring/skimo but it's a pretty awesome climbing pack.

caribouman1052 wrote:I just tossed my second favorite crag pack of all time, or I'd upload some photos for you. It was a Wild Country, made from a fairly heavy ballistics cloth. It lasted at least 15 years with me, and I bought it used. The features were: - Easily haulable - had a lid -which had a zip pocket on the inside - waist belt (which can be tucked into a horizontal pocket ) - side pockets (that were accessible via diagonal zippers, about mid height. They did not protrude out from the main body of the pack... Think slash pockets vs. cargo pockets) - flexible removable plastic back frame - three daisies, two with axe loops at the bottom, and one daisy up the center with a big loop at the top end for clipping a sling to for hauling

Right on, thanks caribouman. I didn't know Wild Country used to make packs. Just did a quick google image search and nothing showed up. It'd be sweet to see a picture if you can dig any up when the pack was still kicking.

Pavel Burov: Likewise, some good points there. I definitely got to work on the one handed opening. So you can still grab a handful of trailmix at the belay when your buddy is sketching out on lead above. That would be clutch.

+1 on something you can approach with and 2nd the route with.

Expandable for the rack/jackets/agua/etc on the hike in. Good rope strapping method. Cinches down for the climb, with minimal crap hanging off to snag. Durable bottom/back of the pack. Save weight on the shoulder straps - go minimalist, do a minimal waist strap if you do one at all.

Great thread, I'm learning a lot!

I'm in software design, and here we do a lot of user research. But we usually avoid asking users what features they want, focusing instead on understanding what problem they need to solve. With this thinking we can perhaps find innovative solutions that the user was not aware of. So what problem should the pack solve? What usage modes do we have?

1. Getting a relatively heavy load, including rope, shoes, etc, comfortably to the base of the climb.
-> possible features: Large volume, comfortable shoulder straps, ability to put rope etc on outside, stable design, hip belt.
2. Getting a lighter load (extra clothes, guidebook, food, water, first aid kit) up the rock, without interfering with the climbing.
-> Small volume, few things that can snag, minimal interference with harness and gear loops (rides high)
3. Accessing contents at belays quickly and without dropping things, often with one hand.
-> Light colors, easy to open and close, practical way of hanging the pack off anchor, hydration system, opening oriented so things do not fall out.
4. Getting a small amount of vital stuff (car keys, credit card, wedding ring) up AND down without losing it.
-> Separate small compartment with attachment for keys.
5. Keeping things dry.

There are apparent contradictions, like "stability and volume" for approach and "compact and flexible" for climbing. A pack like this needs to be a transformer!

On the whole, I personally would focus on comfort (like nice wide shoulder straps), and practical use at belays (like letting me keep my camera separate from my musli bars, so I don't drop the camera while gobbling crumbs).

Tosch,
I looked on line for pictures, and didn't find any.
It was black ballistic cloth, with a red upper and pocket bottom, the daisies were blue flat webbing. I'll do a sketch of the pack.

One thing that strikes me about "easy opening" is that we kind of have the top pocket backwards... imagine this: The grab loop is usually on the Front of the pack ( as in, the face of the pack that is against your back when you are wearing it), which is fine, as it is less likely to snag on protruding edges, chicken heads, branches if we are climbing with it on. Thus, the grab loop location is fine. But the top pocket usually hinges at the Front, so gravity is constantly trying to close it. If we hinge the pocket at the Back of the pack, gravity flips it open!

Tosch,
I looked on line for pictures, and didn't find any. I don't have any of my own. It was black ballistic cloth, with a red upper and pocket bottom, the daisies were blue flat webbing. I'll do a sketch of the pack. The pocket linings were bright yellow, which made it easy to see contents in the dark.

One thing that strikes me about "easy opening" is that we have the top pocket backwards... imagine this: The grab loop is usually on the Front of the pack ( as in, the face of the pack that is against your back when you are wearing it), which is fine, as it is less likely to snag on protruding edges, chicken heads, branches if we are climbing with it on. Thus, the grab loop location is fine. But the top pocket usually hinges at the Front, so gravity is constantly trying to close it. If we hinge the pocket at the Back of the pack, gravity flips it open!

It seems goofy at first, but think about it: how often does your climbing partner need to reach into the main body of the pack while you are hiking in? Very rarely. And, the front hinged pocket makes it very hard for your partner to get stuff out of inner top pocket. So why not reverse that and solve the problem? If I have to get anything out of the top pocket of my pack, inner or outer, I have to take the thing off, so I'm not worried about access to pockets while wearing it.

Compression straps: If a pack has a pocket for a pad, why not thread the compression straps through that pocket? Stow them for the hike, if you need to, and pull them out to... I'll send a sketch.

Daisy chains: I find them useful, especially at a hanging belay. I never found my WC pack daisies to catch on anything. They were made from flat webbing, not fancy variable width, hard-to-clip easy-to-snag stuff. Not tubular webbing. Very basic.