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What presidential candidate would be most beneficial to the climbing community and land access?

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Tim Lutz wrote:Stagg, the video isn't playing. As long as both you and I are both asses, I'm fine with that
I think you and I just like to stir the pot, just in opposite directions.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
D B wrote:stagg keeps glossing over the fact that if everyone in the US chased their dream job, there wouldn't be anyone working the less glamorous ones let alone the fact that there isn't demand (heyyy there's that capitalist buzzword) for everyone to be an engineer, doctor, business owner, etc. fantasy land. how about we pay people enough to live on so we have a happier, healthier population, and a more motivated workforce? because that helps everyone.
No. I think you are missing my point. Lots of people are on here claiming everyone is poor because there is no opportunity and I'm saying that there is plenty of opportunity. You just have to change the way you look at things. Instead of finding excuses look for opportunities. Babysitting, dogwalking, leaf raking, lawn mowing - all of these are always in demand. Are they glamorous jobs? no. But you can make some cash doing it (in many cases more than the current minimum wage). It requires minimal skill and no initial investment. And you can do most of these on the side in addition to your day job. If you are good at it and find enough work, eventually you can hire a couple local high school kids and have your own business and make a half-decent living.

You all sit here coming up with excuses for people: "Oh it's not easy." Of course it's no easy. It's called life...:

For all the classes of people you guys are making excuses for, you can find people in those same situations who have managed to overcome whatever was trying to hold them down and become successfull... So stop telling people it's not possible. You're not helping them. You're not some great philanthropist or advocate for the poor by preaching despair.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Bill Kirby wrote: Please explain more. So no tax on anything?
No, was talking about raising the revenue for the state by consumption, excise and transaction taxes in place of income taxes. The era of stateless societies is still a ways off.
David B · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 205
Stagg54 wrote: No. I think you are missing my point. Lots of people are on here claiming everyone is poor because there is no opportunity and I'm saying that there is plenty of opportunity. You just have to change the way you look at things. Instead of finding excuses look for opportunities. Babysitting, dogwalking, leaf raking, lawn mowing - all of these are always in demand. Are they glamorous jobs? no. But you can make some cash doing it (in many cases more than the current minimum wage). It requires minimal skill and no initial investment. And you can do most of these on the side in addition to your day job. If you are good at it and find enough work, eventually you can hire a couple local high school kids and have your own business and make a half-decent living. You all sit here coming up with excuses for people: "Oh it's not easy." Of course it's no easy. It's called life...: For all the classes of people you guys are making excuses for, you can find people in those same situations who have managed to overcome whatever was trying to hold them down and become successfull... So stop telling people it's not possible. You're not helping them. You're not some great philanthropist or advocate for the poor by preaching despair.
I'm not saying it's impossible for people to move up, I'm saying it's impossible for EVERYONE to move up.

Step 1: Start mowing lawns
Step 2: Build up a customer base
Step 3: Hire people to work under you
Step 4: Those people then must hire people to work under them
Step 5: etc.

That's an Amway approved business structure right there.
Bryan G · · June Lake, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 6,167

Hmm, maybe I should quit my current job and get into the lawn mowing industry. Sounds lucrative.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Bryan G wrote:Hmm, maybe I should quit my current job and get into the lawn mowing industry. Sounds lucrative.
Depends. Are you Vietnamese? Willing to work sunrise/sunset 7 days a week? Have s large network of highly motivated friends and family willing to work that hard too? Then, yes you can build significant wealth doing that.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Mike Lane wrote: Depends. Are you Vietnamese? Willing to work sunrise/sunset 7 days a week? Have s large network of highly motivated friends and family willing to work that hard too? Then, yes you can build significant wealth doing that.
Do you teach?
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Brian Scoggins wrote: Except that it cannot be one or the other. Its true that if you want to sell something, you have to price it low enough that people think that paying for it is at least value neutral. That is, so far as I can tell, the core of the Subjective Theory of Value, and how we define the *maximum* price of things. However, things do have a finite cost. If I want to sell wooden chairs, I have to pay for the wood, and therefore the cost of my chairs must reflect the cost of wood, as well as my living expenses and time. That's how we define the *minimum* price of things. That labor is itself a material is the core of the Labor Theory of Value. If you have to price your product so low that you lose money on the deal, then you need to either make the product more desirable, or address why people are erroneously undervaluing your product. Put another way, everybody will ALWAYS pay less for something, if they can get away with it. And there's no shame in that. But you can't simply say "your wood is worth less to me" simply because some jackass says that your chairs are too expensive. That jackass needs to do the cost-benefit analysis and decide when the chair actually *is* too expensive, and refuse to pay more than that, not just some arbitrary number they pulled out of their ass. As a printer salesman, I was repeatedly told "I want a printer, for less than $50, that'll never break, has cheap ink, and looks good" and when I told them that it didn't exist, they tell me that all printers (which are *always* sold at a loss) were too expensive. People have a fucked up sense of value, and we are well past due them learning that.
The value of a product is what someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of how much it cost to manufacturer. You can tell your customers all day that the printer cost more than $50 to make, but to some the ability to transfer information to paper simply is not worth that much, end of story. Not all products are of value to people, and a customer is not going to be particularly interested or caring in hearing about your business and manufacturing expenses. I hear this all the time in Hawaii. "oh we live in Hawaii so I have to charge $12 for that gallon of milk there." Okay, then I just wont buy it. You cant charge more than the customer is willing to pay, regardless of what you think the product is worth, and if you charge more than your competition you still run the risk of losing business.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Bill Kirby wrote: Do you teach?
A few hundred apprentices over the years.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Damn, wrong again. I usually don't make assumptions. I thought for sure you were a piker.

A trade is a good place to be right now. No huge student loan, above average job market, good pay and benes. I try to push that to a lot of kids trying to figure out what to do after high school.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

I got a year and a half into a Masters in Archtitecture before life forced me to start earning money. Didn't get the loans from it and my BA paid off until I was 35 or so. Plumbing made for a decent career, it was definitely interesting in regards to situations I have been in and places I've seen.
However, a common notion among my generation is the lack of apprentices is scary. 10-15 years there will be a dearth of tradespeople. Worse, since we are dropping off daily the skills we were taught by our old timers are not being passed on.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
20 kN wrote: The value of a product is what someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of how much it cost to manufacturer. You can tell your customers all day that the printer cost more than $50 to make, but to some the ability to transfer information to paper simply is not worth that much, end of story. Not all products are of value to people, and a customer is not going to be particularly interested or caring in hearing about your business and manufacturing expenses. I hear this all the time in Hawaii. "oh we live in Hawaii so I have to charge $12 for that gallon of milk there." Okay, then I just wont buy it. You cant charge more than the customer is willing to pay, regardless of what you think the product is worth, and if you charge more than your competition you still run the risk of losing business.
I think you and Scoggins are both correct. You are correct in that the value is what someone will pay for it, but if that is more than what it cost to produce, who in their right mind would produce it?
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
D B wrote: The link accounts for the 2.2% tax, the 6.2% payroll tax, and all of the various other changes. It's on the 2nd page. Where are you getting the $2k/person number? $1.38 trillion/320 million = $4300 per person, which is still higher than most countries tony?
D B wrote: tony?
OK, sorry - been attending to other stuff. Was working yesterday/today.
So I tried your link and entered $100k, knowing that is above median/average income and used the average cost of coverage (which is 1/2 the amount spent on Medicare, BTW). Well above so, in fact. And I got:

bernietax.com/#100000;4955

Right there.
the title line is:
"$3,388.60 Your yearly disposable income would be higher with a Sanders tax plan."

Regardless, I'm still choking on how they can plan to fund Medicare, which presently has a cost of > $12k/enrollee for $1500/enrollee.

Is shows that a person making $100k will have only one expense:
"Medicare For All" 2.2% flat tax[1] – $1,566.40"

And that's to pay for themselves and the other half of people who are not paying taxes...

Show me the other amounts in cost? Where is that magic source of funding?
So call me skeptical, but...
I saw no reflection of the rest of the cost there:
"...a 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers, progressive income tax rates, taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work, limiting tax deductions for the rich, adjusting the estate tax, and savings from health tax expenditures."
Thatcher · · Seattle, WA · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 5

Doesn't Trump want to build a climbing wall along the Mexico border?

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

That magical source is huge tax increases on households making above $250,000. Look it up. Scary stuff if you're making that type of coin.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Thatcher wrote:Doesn't Trump want to build a climbing wall along the Mexico border?
If he does think of what you could build there. The ultimate traverse, if he builds a wall I will be the first person to traverse the border.
Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
Stagg54 wrote: I think you and Scoggins are both correct. You are correct in that the value is what someone will pay for it, but if that is more than what it cost to produce, who in their right mind would produce it?
And the issue I was teasing out was our apparently slavish beliefs that (1) every employer has the right to say, to all employees "market 'says' the price is too high, so I have to pay you less" while that same employer sends bonuses to the upper management; and (2) that where prices are somehow reflects the value we place on a product.

The point with my printer example was that people come on here, constantly, and say how they never pay retail prices for climbing gear, as if fucking over the people that have made improving our sport their lives' work is somehow laudable. There are a lot of shit brands out there that capitalize on our pathological need to get a bargain. But going with the shit brand that has "undercut the competition" as the entirety of their differentiation scheme (vis a vis ClimbX and Mad Rock before them) causes everyone's quality to drop to compete with them.

In the milk example, you really think the dude taking a $9 a gallon loss on milk is stoked that he got your business?

1 of 2 things is gonna happen in that scenario. Either everybody stops drinking milk, or everybody gets used to higher prices than the mainland.

Again, the cost of labor, materials, etc, sets a *minimum* price on goods, consumer value sets a *maximum*. Together they create a range. Both are open to negotiation. I can make a compelling argument for why you should value my labor more. You can make a compelling argument for how intangibles associated with my position add value that aren't reflected in my wage. But the fact still remains: I cannot, sustainably, accept wages lower than what I can negotiate my cost of living down to, and you cannot, sustainably, pay higher wages than you can negotiate your product value up to.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

"But Washington is freaking out about Trump in a way they never did about Bush. Why? Because Bush was their moron, while Trump is his own moron."

rollingstone.com/politics/n…

Pendejo

David B · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 205
Tony B wrote: OK, sorry - been attending to other stuff. Was working yesterday/today. So I tried your link and entered $100k, knowing that is above median/average income and used the average cost of coverage (which is 1/2 the amount spent on Medicare, BTW). Well above so, in fact. And I got: bernietax.com/#100000;4955 Right there. the title line is: "$3,388.60 Your yearly disposable income would be higher with a Sanders tax plan." Regardless, I'm still choking on how they can plan to fund Medicare, which presently has a cost of > $12k/enrollee for $1500/enrollee. Is shows that a person making $100k will have only one expense: "Medicare For All" 2.2% flat tax[1] – $1,566.40" And that's to pay for themselves and the other half of people who are not paying taxes... Show me the other amounts in cost? Where is that magic source of funding? So call me skeptical, but... I saw no reflection of the rest of the cost there: "...a 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers, progressive income tax rates, taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work, limiting tax deductions for the rich, adjusting the estate tax, and savings from health tax expenditures."
Dude... bernietax.com is only showing what you will save, as an average person, based on the 2.2% tax and healthcare savings. It's not meant to calculate the entire cost of the program.

And you ignored my post and repeated your false $1.5k number. I already showed you that they're planning on paying slightly more per person (~$4.3k) than most other countries. What are you still skeptical about? Why do you think other countries can do it, but we can't?
David B · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 205
Bill Kirby wrote:That magical source is huge tax increases on households making above $250,000. Look it up. Scary stuff if you're making that type of coin.
That's not the only source.

berniesanders.com/issues/ho…

And The tax increases aren't huge, percentage wise. They're still historically low, even under most of Reagan's presidency. And keep in mind it's all marginal rates...people seem to conveniently forget that.

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Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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