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Wilderness First Responder vs Wilderness First Aid

mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Tapawingo wrote: and administer epinephrine, right? (Not that you really need a wfr to know how to do this, I feel like I remember that the WFR legally allows one to do so. I may be mistaken though.
WFR does not give you legal right to administer epi. It only certifies that you received training to administer.

Epi laws are different state to state.
Tapawingo Markey · · Reno? · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 75
mountainhick wrote: WFR does not give you legal right to administer epi. It only certifies that you received training to administer. Epi laws are different state to state.
Cool, thanks for clearing that up.
JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
Spidey Rocks wrote: I have the time right now...$775/10 day investment...I'm about 3-4 hours from Yosemite, the Sierras and even farther from the desert...At least with technical rescue skills like escaping the belay, hauling people/gear, etc, I get to see it on climbs and practice it every so often, especially once I get more into trad climbing and multi pitch at Yosemite...I do not intend to work for a guiding company...even if I don't need it for a job, I should go through it?
I’ll offer an opposing view: skip the WFA/WFR training for now. Many have pointed out that a WFR is very valuable training. This may be true. But I will wager that at this stage in your climbing career, there are more valuable ways to spend 2 weeks and $775. Notably, by developing actual climbing skills. Spend as much money as you can on quality climbing gear, then spend whatever you have left on some food and a bus ticket to Yosemite, and use that 2 weeks learning, practicing, and using real climbing skills.

As you observe, first aid training may or may not turn out to be useful for saving someone else’s bacon many years from now. Putting in the time learning trad skills will have guaranteed payoff for saving your own bacon on a regular basis year after year.
Lee Green · · Edmonton, Alberta · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 51
Ryanb. wrote:Question for mountainhick or others with experience: I am looking at Advanced Wilderness Life Support classes and I am wondering how this training/experience compares to WFR training? Intended goal is to be able to apply a knowledge from a hospital setting more effectively in the wilderness.
If your knowledge from the hospital setting is substantial and hands-on (MD/DO, NP, PA, RN, or RT), the AWLS course is likely a good choice for you. It's designed for health care professionals to extend their skills into the "austere environment", i.e., where we don't have the resources we're used to. It pretty much presumes that you deal with arterial bleeders or compromised airways in real life already, just takes you to how to do it at altitude and with whatever you have around.
Ryanb. · · Chattanooga · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 5
Lee Green wrote: If your knowledge from the hospital setting is substantial and hands-on (MD/DO, NP, PA, RN, or RT), the AWLS course is likely a good choice for you. It's designed for health care professionals to extend their skills into the "austere environment", i.e., where we don't have the resources we're used to. It pretty much presumes that you deal with arterial bleeders or compromised airways in real life already, just takes you to how to do it at altitude and with whatever you have around.
Excellent, that sounds like what I am looking for, thanks for the input
Arlo F Niederer · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 515

I volunteered on Teton County SAR for twelve years and was WFR certified. I was certified in Wyoming as an ALS EMT and volunteered as an EMT for Teton County.

I suggest you start with the WFA. It will give you basic skills and start building a base of medical knowledge and skills. Then you can look at the WFR curriculum and see if you need all of the additional skills. You could take the WFR at a later date if your work requires it or you want the skills. You will also retain more because you are building on the base the WFA started.

I thought the WFR training was similar to First Responder or BEC (basic emergency care) that firefighters or law enforcement receive, but with modification to account for backcountry settings. A few things I learned in WFR were useful on the ambulance - spinal protocols for example.

What skills you can legally utilize depends on the state. To do more advanced skills you must practice under a "medical control" which is usually an ER physician. You have to follow protocols - some of which you can do without permission and others which you must contact medical control.

WFA seemed similar to a Red Cross public first aid class my son took.

It's good that you want skills to be able to help. But the most important element is experience. If you don't volunteer or work for an organization that responds on a regular basis, you will get rusty really fast - and you won't be able to utilize a few of the advanced skills. I know having to recert every two years has a cost and is a pain but it is necessary to keep your skills sharp - and to keep you up to date with the latest developments.

Spidey Rocks · · San Francisco · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

Thanks, Ario for your feedback.

A slightly different question to all--would it make sense to take WFR just for personal knowledge? I do a lot of things solo (backcountry sometimes). Not sure how much of the WFR training could be applied to myself, provided that I'm still conscious when hurt. It'd be great to help others in time of crisis, but unfortunately our country is highly litigious and I wonder to what extent I'd need to worry about getting sued by the injured even if my attempt to help is of good nature.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

Good Samaritan laws should protect you as long as you operate within the scope of your training. For example, if you have current CPR training, and you break someone's rib performing CPR as trained, you're protected. If you have only basic CPR training, and you try to perform a tracheotomy, you can be held liable. Your WFR class will have a section covering legal issues such as consent, negligence, and scope of practice.

Yes, the skills can be very useful in your personal trips. You may find yourself in a position to help your partners, to help yourself, or to help your partners help you.

Arlo F Niederer · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 515

The medical knowledge you gain from a WFR class is always useful, even in front country settings. Many people think it's only about serious injuries but the course I took had good training about things you are likely to encounter such as blisters.

Also, they had training about illnesses such as UTI's (urinary tract infections), parasites such as giardia, etc.

I also enjoy solo trips. I've done many solo backpacks deep into the Winds. The biggest risk is having a severe injury. The reality is you wouldn't survive long enough to reach "definitive medical care" - surgery or other advanced medical care required to do the necessary "repairs". There's a term in emergency medicine called "the golden hour" - with serious injury/illness the survival rate is much higher if you receive definitive care within an hour.

I contemplated purchasing a SPOT device to take on my solo trips, but they were expensive and required signing up for an equally expensive yearly subsciption. What I did instead was leave a detailed itinerary with family including maps of my trip and instructions of when to send help if I didn't return at a specified time (knowing what's important for rescuers based on my SAR work). I religiously followed my itinerary.

Fortunately, the price of SPOT has gone down and you can sign up for only the time you need it for. I purchased a Delorme Inreach and used it on a trip into the Winds this last summer. It allows you to have friends/family track you on GPS coordinates of your position every 15 minutes or so. My friends and family enjoyed tracking the progress of my trip.

The most important feature is an SOS button that will summon help via national SAR satellite and also notify the local SAR in the area. Wouldn't help you if you were unconscious but would in most circumstances. Obviously, they are very beneficial for two or more people. This is where WFR training would be very beneficial - you would know when to call for help or just manage on your own.

Liability - the Good Samaritan laws are robust and would protect you. Other laws protect emergency responders such as SAR and EMS. The catch for this protection is you must stay within your "scope of practice". All this means is you only perform skills you are trained and authorized to do - you are trained to provide a certain "standard of care". If you provide the accepted standard of care, for example, that a WFR is authorized to provide you will be protected.

dp- · · east LA/ north Orange County · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 0

Why doesn't the 4 day WAFA get any love on mountain project? Having taken the WAFA twice and the WAFA to WFR bridge class, the 36 hour WAFA is probably perfect for most people. It's a lot of content. Unless it's changed, it includes spinal assessment, most the WFRs dislocation treatments, evacuations, and epi that the WFR has. It's really solid on patient assessment without being overwhelming. Since I'm not in a outdoor program the WFR was overkill for me.

I had a really good WAFA where a SAR team was recerting and didn't pick up a ton more from the bridge class other than a couple of extra simulations.

Spidey, you're in SF right? So nothing super local but Santa Barbra, Mt Shasta, and Idyllwild wouldn't be too far. I'm seeing classes in mid March, mid-April and late April. Or use it for an excuse to road trip to WA or UT.

Mark Cowan · · Centerville, GA · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 8

I'm a front country EMT, and I found that with my level of training, the WAFA was the right fit for me. I think I would've gotten WEMT, if I had taken the course through a different agency that offered that program. Judge based on your front country medical or first aid knowledge and expertise and adjust from there. Just my $0.10. If I had no front country medical training I'd go WFR if I could.

Medic741 · · Des Moines, IA (WTF) · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 265

Off topic but what is an ALS EMT???

Arlo F Niederer · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 515

Advanced Life Support - allowed to administer drugs, IVs, endotracial intubation, cardiac monitoring, etc.

In Wyoming there are two levels - intermediate and Paramedic.

Chris Schmidt · · Fruita, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

Hello MP I'm looking for a WFR re-cert or WFA that is NOT on Friday-Sunday. I am located in Western CO and am hoping to find something under 500 miles away.

I have looked through WMA, WMI, and Desert Mountain and have only found 1 course that I can possibly attend and am just wondering what other providers I should look into. These 3 also cost an arm and a leg so if there is something more affordable that would be wonderful...

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Chris Schmidt wrote:Hello MP I'm looking for a WFR re-cert or WFA that is NOT on Friday-Sunday. I am located in Western CO and am hoping to find something under 500 miles away. I have looked through WMA, WMI, and Desert Mountain and have only found 1 course that I can possibly attend and am just wondering what other providers I should look into. These 3 also cost an arm and a leg so if there is something more affordable that would be wonderful...
One possibility is that if you can get enough people together you could contact the provider directly and set up a private class.
DesertRat · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 196
Chris Schmidt wrote:Hello MP I'm looking for a WFR re-cert or WFA that is NOT on Friday-Sunday. I am located in Western CO and am hoping to find something under 500 miles away. I have looked through WMA, WMI, and Desert Mountain and have only found 1 course that I can possibly attend and am just wondering what other providers I should look into. These 3 also cost an arm and a leg so if there is something more affordable that would be wonderful...
Flagstaff Field Institute offers WFR recerts during the week and also on Saturdays though Mondays as well as the typical Friday through Sunday courses.

flagstafffieldinstitute.com…
Spidey Rocks · · San Francisco · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

Hi DesertRat,

I'm not sure if you might have already seen this but the full list of providers, dates, and fees are listed here:

nols.edu/portal/wmi/courses/

Spidey Rocks · · San Francisco · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15
dp- wrote:Why doesn't the 4 day WAFA get any love on mountain project? Having taken the WAFA twice and the WAFA to WFR bridge class, the 36 hour WAFA is probably perfect for most people. It's a lot of content. Unless it's changed, it includes spinal assessment, most the WFRs dislocation treatments, evacuations, and epi that the WFR has. It's really solid on patient assessment without being overwhelming. Since I'm not in a outdoor program the WFR was overkill for me. I had a really good WAFA where a SAR team was recerting and didn't pick up a ton more from the bridge class other than a couple of extra simulations. Spidey, you're in SF right? So nothing super local but Santa Barbra, Mt Shasta, and Idyllwild wouldn't be too far. I'm seeing classes in mid March, mid-April and late April. Or use it for an excuse to road trip to WA or UT.
Hi DP, Thanks for the info. I was mainly looking at WFR because SPI kind of needs it. Honestly, I think all of these are very helpful.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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