Mountain Project Logo

How to lower when there are no rap rings or carabiners??

Todd R · · Vansion, CO / WY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 40
Ted Pinson wrote:I would be surprised if there was a single sport route in the world that didn't have some sort of anchor to lower/rappel off of.
I know of two in the Splatte without even having to think about it. They definitely exist.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
DrRockso wrote:It's absolutely not okay to rappel directly off hangers or glue in bolts with a couple exceptions. It's probably not going to kill you but it's not going to be good for your rope and could be hell pulling.
That is a ludicrous statement! Rapping off a hanger poses negligible wear issues. It is a perfect safe and sensible way of getting down if you need to. Just check that the rope will pull easily and that the edge isn't jagged or sharp.

DrRockso wrote:The next exception is it is RARELY acceptable to rappel directly off glue-ins that were designed for such purpose depending on the area, 100% of the areas I climb at it is NOT ok to rappel or bail off any glue in.
WTF!? How does the type of bolt make a difference?

Wear comes from lowering as there rope is moving while under load. The wear from pulling after rappelling is at least an order of magnitude less, probably several orders or magnitude.
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

You obviously don't climb at Red River Gorge, where sand laiden ropes act like, well.. Sandpaper. I've replaced 3/8th quicklinks after just a season of wear on popular routes. The type of glue-in ABSOLUTELY makes a huge difference. All the glue-ins we are using in RRG currently are 6mm rod stock, plenty strong, but not thick enough to allow grooving due to rope wear. On the other hand fixe, petzl, or hardware store style eyebolts are considerably thicker and could theoretically handle some wear. It's my impression that SOME areas in Europe allow lowering through these types of glue-ins, as a rule of thumb (atleast is the US) lowering/rapping directly off glue-ins is not allowed. If you are cleaning a sport route, you have biners, there is no excuse to rap directly off hangers.

Magpie79 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 0
Barrett Pauer wrote:there is no reason not to leave two biners and rap! never rap through standard hangers
This.
2 carabiners ~ $10
1 rope ~ $200
Cheap insurance for your rope
Nick Turtura · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 25
Magpie79 wrote: This. 2 carabiners ~ $10 1 rope ~ $200 Cheap insurance for your rope
2 carabiners that have a few years of hard use and you don't really use for anything anymore - maybe $.50

I've got a box of biners I wouldn't want to take a fall on yet would gladly leave for a safe descent. My chalk bag is always attached with a bail biner.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
DrRockso wrote:You obviously don't climb at Red River Gorge, where sand laiden ropes act like, well.. Sandpaper. I've replaced 3/8th quicklinks after just a season of wear on popular routes. The type of glue-in ABSOLUTELY makes a huge difference. All the glue-ins we are using in RRG currently are 6mm rod stock, plenty strong, but not thick enough to allow grooving due to rope wear. On the other hand fixe, petzl, or hardware store style eyebolts are considerably thicker and could theoretically handle some wear. It's my impression that SOME areas in Europe allow lowering through these types of glue-ins, as a rule of thumb (atleast is the US) lowering/rapping directly off glue-ins is not allowed. If you are cleaning a sport route, you have biners, there is no excuse to rap directly off hangers.
Huh!? The wear from rapping is negligible as the rope is not loaded. Comparing the wear with that of lowering is absurd.

Furthermore if you are bailing off a hanger is a rare event. The rarity of it and the negligible wear from rope pulling really makes your argument laughable.

I bailed off hanger on an R rated Tuolumne climb. The climb had non existent protection above that hanger and the next bolt was 20ft up, so I downclimbed and bailed. Rope pull and wear was not an issue.
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

You're taking things totally out of perspective here, this thread is giving the OP advice on what do if one reaches the anchors on a single pitch sport climb and the anchors are just hangers. There is a difference between you could do this in an emergency if you have to vs. Standard sport climbing etiquette.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
DrRockso wrote:You're taking things totally out of perspective here, this thread is giving the OP advice on what do if one reaches the anchors on a single pitch sport climb and the anchors are just hangers. There is a difference between you could do this in an emergency if you have to vs. Standard sport climbing etiquette.
And I was responding you to claim that it is "It's absolutely not okay to rappel directly off hangers".

The OP's example is not consistent with most sport climbing scenarios. The top anchors of a single pitch sport climb are pretty much by definition intended at minimum to rap off. After all, its sport climbing.
Magpie79 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 0
Nick Turtura wrote: 2 carabiners that have a few years of hard use and you don't really use for anything anymore - maybe $.50 I've got a box of biners I wouldn't want to take a fall on yet would gladly leave for a safe descent. My chalk bag is always attached with a bail biner.
$10 for two new biners would be the worst case scenario for replacement cost. I have collected quite a few bail biners, so my cost would be $0.
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507
Ted Pinson wrote:I would be surprised if there was a single sport route in the world that didn't have some sort of anchor to lower/rappel off of, so this is somewhat a moot discussion. Don't thread the rope through the bolt hangers.
I'm sure I've seen hundreds, I guess it depends how far you are off the beaten path.
Adam Stackhouse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 13,970
DrRockso wrote:You obviously don't climb at Red River Gorge, where sand laiden ropes act like, well.. Sandpaper. I've replaced 3/8th quicklinks after just a season of wear on popular routes. The type of glue-in ABSOLUTELY makes a huge difference. All the glue-ins we are using in RRG currently are 6mm rod stock, plenty strong, but not thick enough to allow grooving due to rope wear. On the other hand fixe, petzl, or hardware store style eyebolts are considerably thicker and could theoretically handle some wear. It's my impression that SOME areas in Europe allow lowering through these types of glue-ins, as a rule of thumb (atleast is the US) lowering/rapping directly off glue-ins is not allowed. If you are cleaning a sport route, you have biners, there is no excuse to rap directly off hangers.
I thought it was "obviously" a general question by the OP not one that was germane to a specific area.
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

The obvious answer is no don't rap directly off hangers, the reason for the qualifier is we have had problems in the past with people stealing quick links and subsequent climbers lowering or rapping directly through the glue ins. Our van
Can also be an issue with people bailing directly off a glue in instead of leaving a biner.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
DrRockso wrote:It's absolutely not ....
I love absolutes. They are amusing. There are some absolutes in Climbing such as rapping off the ends of your rope or dropping your partner. But threading bolt hangers is not one of them. It's not going to get you killed. It will be a total bitch to pull your rope though.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Greg D wrote:But threading bolt hangers is not one of them. It's not going to get you killed. It will be a total bitch to pull your rope though.
This.
It's what I was trying to get at upthread. All the folks saying that it will just put extra wear on your rope and that pulling it "might be difficult" - have any of you actually pulled 30m of rope from the ground through two side by side bolt hangers? My suggestion is to go and try it. At best it will be a "total bitch" as Greg D says. More likely it will be impossible.

This is referring to regular bolt hangers - not glue-ins (which don't have a hanger), not eye bolts (also which don't have hangers), and not Metolius rap hangers which are specifically designed for enabling rappelling (meaning the pull-down).
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

Ted Pinson wrote:
I would be surprised if there was a single sport route in the world that didn't have some sort of anchor to lower/rappel off of, so this is somewhat a moot discussion.

tim wrote: I'm sure I've seen hundreds, I guess it depends how far you are off the beaten path.
Are they really one pitch sport routes then? You're not talking about multi-pitch where the P1 anchor is a belay anchor that you won't be using for lowering/rappelling, right? You're also not talking about routes that happen to have some bolts on them but aren't sport routes, correct?
Nick Turtura · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 25
Magpie79 wrote: $10 for two new biners would be the worst case scenario for replacement cost. I have collected quite a few bail biners, so my cost would be $0.
+1

Not sure how this thread is still going.

Bring a bail biner.
No biner - rap through the anchor, don't make it a habbit.
Someone freaks out - start a conversation about "climbing and guns."

(now lets see where this goes ;)
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Nick Turtura wrote: +1 Not sure how this thread is still going. Bring a bail biner. No biner - rap through the anchor, don't make it a habbit.
And remember that *every* biner on your rack and draws can become a bail biner. The idea that someone "had" to rap through the anchors because they didn't have a special purpose bail biner is patently ridiculous.
Adam Stackhouse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 13,970

or as I used to do, bring a piece of webbing to leave. There are multiple ways around rapping through the hangers themselves, but if you've been climbing long enough you've most certainly done it. Easier to contemplate things from the ground than it is stuck at the top of some dome.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Adam Stackhouse wrote: Easier to contemplate things from the ground than it is stuck at the top of some dome.
Another thing we've all done would be talking ourselves into taking more risk due to the fact you ain't leaving nothing... And not just at the anchor.
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507
Marc801 wrote:Ted Pinson wrote: I would be surprised if there was a single sport route in the world that didn't have some sort of anchor to lower/rappel off of, so this is somewhat a moot discussion. Are they really one pitch sport routes then? You're not talking about multi-pitch where the P1 anchor is a belay anchor that you won't be using for lowering/rappelling, right? You're also not talking about routes that happen to have some bolts on them but aren't sport routes, correct?
Yep, single pitch sport. If you climb in obscure areas it's not unusual. Trade routes, popular areas? Nope.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
Post a Reply to "How to lower when there are no rap rings or car…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.