Wilderness First Responder vs Wilderness First Aid

Spidey Rocks wrote:Hi Guys, Thanks so much for everyone's input. Really appreciate your taking the time to give your two cents! After considering everyone's input and examining what I know to be my learning style, I have elected to take the WFR. Now comes the fun part: find ways to pay for it :) Call me anal and slow but I'm one of those people who needs to read and then be shown how to tie a figure 8, given the opportunity to do it 10 times on my own, make mistakes along the way and get un-stuck, teach someone else to do the same, before I really feel that I've mastered a concept/skill :) So the more practice and details and hands-on scenarios, the better. Sounds like WFR is the way to go regardless of whether or not my future employment requires it. The challenge I see is remembering the stuff I'll learn. I tend to forget things I don't use but I suppose even if 10% of the materials gets stored in my long-term memory, that is 10% that I wouldn't otherwise have. Thanks again, guys!

That;s why they make your recert so often...

So there are quite a few places to get a WFR, and some have been noted above. WMA, SOLO, and NOLS/WMI each offer a WFR that (AFAIK) comply with WMS standards. The WMA and SOLO certs are both 3 year certs, but the NOLS/WMI cert is a 2 year cert. I've heard that the costs of doing a WFR has gone up recently, but when I did mine two and a half years ago, the cost for the general public was around $600-$700. Some employers *may* provide discounts, and there are scholarships available from some providers/hosts. You'll want to search around online. If you're still in school, check with your school's rec department, especially if they have an outdoor program. Most outdoor programs that I know of require at least one guide to have a WFR, and there are some programs (actually, only a few) that have WFR instructors on staff, and will actually host yearly WFRs. If you're involved in SAR, some organization have WFR instructors involved, and can definitely help point you towards or even provide WFR/W(A)FA courses.

EDIT: When I first did my cert, I didn't feel that confident right away. As a guide for my school's outdoor program, we almost never use our WFR skills. Throughout the past couple years, I've done a couple scenarios, both full-scale scenarios and simple thought exercises, and that's really helped quite a bit. But the biggest thing about this, and any skill, is to keep practicing them. Find a couple friends, chat about stuff. Look online for case studies, and go through the mental motions of, I'm in this situation, what would I do? And most of all, find a mentor/instructor who can sit down with you and go through some of this stuff. But whatever you do, don't just let your WFR skills sit in the back of your mind. A cert itself isn't worth anything - the skills, confidence, and experience that come with getting and applying that cert are. Applying being the key word.

Source: theclymb.com/stories/out-th…, and experience.

Another thought I just had:

If you don't necessarily need a WFR for your job or some other reason, you would probably be best served by taking a WFA first and then when it expires take the WFR. the WFR course is like drinking from a fire hose. By having the WFA first at least them some of it will be review...

Thanks, guys. If money is of no concern, it would be a no brainer to take the WFR instead of WFA since I have the time right now. I have no doubt that more training is better than no training, but I worry that the $775/10 day investment would go to waste if I don't use the skills. And I don't know when I'll get to use those skills when I'm about 3-4 hours from Yosemite, the Sierras and even farther from the desert. The daily hazards I encounter in the city include getting run over by cars, bicycles, or cell phone-wielding tourists that lacked balancing skills but chose to ride fast as they crossed the Golden Gate Bridge.

At least with technical rescue skills like escaping the belay, hauling people/gear, etc, I get to see it on climbs and practice it every so often, especially once I get more into trad climbing and multi pitch at Yosemite. But I'm not so sure about how often I'll get to think about the application of wilderness medicine because I tend not be placed myself in super remote regions to begin with.

I do not intend to work for a guiding company. If I go through SPI training and end up teaching as a side job, I would want to be independent so that I could teach as much or as little as I want where ever I find clients. It would seem that it would help to have WFR as part of a credential (just like a SPI certification from AMGA) in order to appear more legit to clients, even though we all know that having the certification alone won't cut it. I also will likely need to get some sort of liability/insurance and they might require me to be a WFR, not sure.

Do you think the topics covered in WFR would be valuable enough that even if I don't need it for a job, I should go through it?

For me, having the confidence to know that I can deal with pretty much whatever comes at me in the backcountry is huge. That, and the fact that even though I haven't had to put my WFR skills to any serious test yet, I really only need to exercise those skills once to save someone's life in order to make that entire training worth it.

A friend of mine, a week after getting her WFR recert, witnessed someone fall from the top of a pitch while setting up a rappel, and was the first responder. She said that her WFR training helped her respond to the incident without being overwhelmed by it all, so that mental aspect of feeling able to deal with an incident without being overwhelmed is also something to consider, although it is hard to quantify.

Thanks, Gavin. I share the same line of reasoning as well. I just worry that I'm going to forget all the stuff when I actually need to use it. Suppose your friend saw the falling body about 2 years after the WFR certification, I wonder if she would have responded to the situation/scene with as much clarity and calmness.

...probably still more than if she'd never taken the class at all.

You can choose to review and practice your WFR skills just as you choose to review and practice your climbing self-rescue skills.

You don't need to be way out in the backcountry to need wilderness medicine. Esp. when climbing, it doesn't take much to be several hours between injury and hospital, even when the road or hospital is not that far away as the crow flies.

Unless you work in SAR, none of us know when we might need WFR skills, that's kinda the point. If you wait to take the class until you can be certain you'll need the skills very soon, you'll never take it - and then you are certain NOT to have the skills when you need them.

Spidey Rocks wrote: Do you think the topics covered in WFR would be valuable enough that even if I don't need it for a job, I should go through it?

Yes. I know lots of people who have WFR and don't have a job that requires it.

Stagg54 wrote: Yes. I know lots of people who have WFR and don't have a job that requires it.

Although the real trick is not just for you to do it, but to get all your friends to do it. If you're the one that's injured and you happen to be unconscious all your training does you no good - you are relying on your partner's training.

Take a WFA and buy the WFR book and field manual if you want to read/learn more. WFR is a cash cow for sure.

I have been an EMT since 1985, worked professionally as EMT for years, and teaching for WMI was my main employment for over 15 years. I taught roughly 300 students per year, so somewhere around 4500 people as WFAs, WFRs and WEMTs. I am now retired from teaching, and have no vested interest in "cash cow" course marketing. I do have a very practical experienced outlook on the training and know who I'd want working on me if I was seriously hurt... Not a WFA.

If you want to come away with actual skills, WFR training rocks. WFA training sucks

WFAs do not get the needed hours doing scenarios, practicing the skills. It would take an extraordinary individual to actually perform at a WFR level by taking a WFA and reading a book. Possible, but extremely unlikely.

WFA courses give a nice intro to wilderness first aid and are useful to those who otherwise would not take any other training. That's about it.

And, regarding ongoing training; some people grasp and internalize the material and skills well. Some of these people perform consistently years later and even keep improving every recert cycle. Others don't and it's remarkable how bad their retention and ability is 2-3 years later. Some others deteriorate every recert cycle becoming less and less capable over time.

Thanks, Mountainhick for your input. I fall into the category of people who forget things easily but take the time to really understand concepts and ask a ton of questions. As a result, I probably master and remember fewer things than others but the things I remember, I understand at a greater depth than most.

For the WFR students you have had who performed well in spite of not being an EMT or wilderness rock or outdoors guide for a living, how have they maintained their knowledge and without routine, hands-on practice? Are there blogs or forums or newsletters shared among mountain guides and EMTs where different cases and solutions are discussed, in a similar way MRIs and patient case histories/prognosis are discussed at Tumor Board in the field of oncology?

As far as forgetting training, I carry this field-sized book in my first aid kit.

store.nols.edu/store/pc/NOL…

It's probably overpriced for what it is, but it gives me peace of mind to know that I don't need to remember every small detail, just the bigger picture of how to approach an incident, and the book can fill in the details that I don't remember 2 years after the fact.

Thanks, Gavin. Looks like a useful resource.

quote=Spidey Rocks>For the WFR students you have had who performed well in spite of not being an EMT or wilderness rock or outdoors guide for a living, how have they maintained their knowledge and without routine, hands-on practice? Are there blogs or forums or newsletters shared among mountain guides and EMTs where different cases and solutions are discussed, in a similar way MRIs and patient case histories/prognosis are discussed at Tumor Board in the field of oncology?

Some are avid about keeping up with it all, others just have a natural ability to internalize and retain didactic material and/or skills.

I Personally don't pursue such avenues for keeping fresh so don't know what's available beyond the resources on NOLS WMI website resources tab. I am sure there is more than a lifetime's worth of study material if you look for it.

Question for mountainhick or others with experience: I am looking at Advanced Wilderness Life Support classes and I am wondering how this training/experience compares to WFR training?

Intended goal is to be able to apply a knowledge from a hospital setting more effectively in the wilderness.

Stagg54 wrote:oh biggest WFR advantage - ability to clear the spine...

and administer epinephrine, right? (Not that you really need a wfr to know how to do this, I feel like I remember that the WFR legally allows one to do so. I may be mistaken though.

Tapawingo wrote: and administer epinephrine, right? (Not that you really need a wfr to know how to do this, I feel like I remember that the WFR legally allows one to do so. I may be mistaken though.

Depends on the state. In many, you are allowed to administer someone's epi to them, but you can't administer it to someone else, or administer unassigned epi to anyone (unless the organization you work for has a prescription for unassigned epi and they specifically train you to use it).

Ryanb. wrote:Question for mountainhick or others with experience: I am looking at Advanced Wilderness Life Support classes and I am wondering how this training/experience compares to WFR training? Intended goal is to be able to apply a knowledge from a hospital setting more effectively in the wilderness.

If you have previous training (ie. doctor, nurse, or other EMS) then it should be pretty similar. WFR is designed for people with little to no medical training, so if you work in a hospital then much of the material covered will feel like review.
I'm not familiar with Advanced Wilderness Life Support specifically, but Remote Medical International has a similar program called Remote Medicine for the Advanced Provider ( remotemedical.com/RMI-Train…) as well as an REMT course.

Ryanb. wrote:Question for mountainhick or others with experience: I am looking at Advanced Wilderness Life Support classes and I am wondering how this training/experience compares to WFR training? Intended goal is to be able to apply a knowledge from a hospital setting more effectively in the wilderness.

Sorry, I have no knowledge of that outfit.