Trad question

even on fairly straight lines the upward movement of draws can be quite sudden and violent in a fall ...

even on extended pieces ...

youtube.com/watch?v=nDSg0vl…

mountainproject.com/v/multi…

the only real solution is to extend the pieces within reason, have at least one or two pieces that can take an upward/outward pull and to place more pieces (as long as they dont compromise other pieces) ... or use doubles

to be blunt ... bad and weird shiet can happen in a fall even to "experienced" folks ... as a beginner you have a MUCH less margin for error

placing gear is easy ... its understanding how the pro, rope and belayer behave as a SYSTEM that takes a long time and kills folks

;)

Em, thanks! I'm prepared to anchor myself, but prefer not to. I've also floated around with my feet off the ground plenty, and being airborne doesn't bother me at all. That does mean I also am assessing each belay, my climber, and the "what ifs" for most every belay. I think it's an unexpected gift I got, being lighter and knowing to expect surprises!

Thanks again, Frank. Point taken, not a precise thing. :)

I LOVE that video! Thanks for popping it in here, too. Everybody, not just noobs, can get a lot from it, but especially if you haven't seen much in the way of falls. So many of the videos are just climbing porn, which is great, especially places you'll never see, but real stuff happening on real climbs is where you can learn!

Thanks, bear!

BigFeet wrote:...another option to consider on a climb that may have the rope trying to follow a traverse after a vertical path, and I believe to be a safer method when in doubt could be to have the leader build an anchor and bring the second up.

Why is this "safer?" If the gear at the start of the traverse is good enough to build a belay anchor, what is the advantage of having the second up there with all the resulting increased fall factors? The only reason in this situation I can think of to bring up the second is if rope drag has become severe.

Seems to me Trad climbing is a partnership, even more so than sport, and unless you like rescue situations or you don't like your partner. We need to keep each other safe. If my partner doesn't like suggestions that will keep us both safe then I will find another partner. Be aware of all situations as you belay and if you see something that your partner may not, speak up.
Be safe!! Climbing is to much fun to be hurt and not be able to climb.

will smith wrote:Seems to me Trad climbing is a partnership, even more so than sport, and unless you like rescue situations or you don't like your partner. We need to keep each other safe. If my partner doesn't like suggestions that will keep us both safe then I will find another partner. Be aware of all situations as you belay and if you see something that your partner may not, speak up. Be safe!! Climbing is to much fun to be hurt and not be able to climb.

yes and no

if your partner is going for the onsight specifically ... gear beta may well be considered "cheating", even something as simple as "extend that specific piece"

some folks dont care, others are very specific about what information they want

at the end of the day you have to respect your partners decision and trust they make the right choice ... or climb with someone else

theres plenty of times i only place sparsely or no gear at all on easy ground if it doesnt endanger the second, you need that mental training for bigger climbs where the only gear is 50 feet between rusty pitons ... if a partner "demanded" i placed more gear because hes afraid (not because hes in danger) i would simply find a new partner

;)

It also depends how well you know your partner. I have long-term partners whose decisions I rarely question, but with folks I don't know well I might be more interactive...

If someone is running it out and obviously cruising, I probably won't say anything. If they start having even small signs of trouble while purposely running it out, then I start worrying about their contact with reality and I'm probably going to ask in a nice way whether they can get something in soon. I'm also probably not going to climb with them again...

Another situation that calls for words from the belayer occurs when traverses or diagonal climbing is involved and the leader doesn't seem to be attending to the task of protecting the second. It is fairly typical for inexperienced trad leaders (regardless of their physical climbing prowess) to botch protection for the second, so it may be up to the second to keep themselves safe.

Something in the same vein I've unfortunately seen from trad leaders who ought to know better is the failure to create an appropriately robust overhead piece for the second when a very long traverse is involved. For example, we have routes in the Gunks that climb up to a ledge, and then the leader walks or almost walks way to the side to belay. The piece at the top of the vertical part has to be of belay-anchor quality---not just a single nut or cam---because if that piece blows, the second takes a gigantic fall, quite possibly a ground fall, and so unbeknown to themselves may have been soloing the entire route. This is a serious technical and even moral failure by the leader, but things being what they are, the second should keep their eyes peeled.

When it comes to extending pieces, I want to hear from my second if it looks to them as if I need a longer runner. As I said before, the belayer often has a better take on the rope pattern than the leader. And as a user of half ropes, I periodically ask my belayer's opinion about which rope I should clip, because, again, they often have a better view of the total situation.

lets explode one of the "myths" of climbing ... the second is NOT safe

yes you try to make em safer within reason by placing gear on traverses and by protecting the belay ...

but on many routes, even moderate beginner ones ... the second is NOT safe as there is simply little to no gear to protect traverses on some slabs and face climbs ...

this is especially true in places like the canadian rockies where the gear is minimal,the pitons are rusty, and gear placements are suspect in limestone anyways

even on some of the most popular squamish beginner multis, there are certain no fall places for the seconds ... no/little gear slab/face traverses

now if your partner has issues with these you simply need to bring em up straight line climbs, they need to get better, or you need to climb with someone else

even if there are placements to build multiple "anchors" ... you simply may not be bringing up that much gear or have used it lower down ... especially if you need to beat the weather/darkness. you may not be fiddling around with a double or more rack

i see it over and over again beginners or folks who are scared being dragged up on multi thinking they can fall anywhere as they are on "top rope" ... and the leaders who assure them they are "safe"

unless the climb is exceptionally well protected and a straight line up ... they arent

not to mention rope stretch on a longer pitch ... which leads to folks shortening up the rope to ridiculous lengths sometimes so they can talk their seconds through a 5.6 pitch ... causing traffic jams for the parties behind

when one gets beyond the crag out here ... the second needs to climb with the mentality that they cant fall on easier ground

sure you wont die, but theres plenty of places you can get hurt

;)

My examples came from 200-foot crag climbs. The climbers in question had plenty of time and gear.

Obviously, big walls, ridge traverses, and mountain routes in general are a different issue altogether. On such routes the leader and second may have to deal with the same level of risk on a pitch, and maybe things will actually be a lot worse for the second. Such situations require teams of equal ability. Someone who knowingly takes a much-less-competent second into such situations is guilty of climbing malpractice.

One of the things that annoys me no end is when someone climbs on a 200 foot crag as if they were doing a 2000 foot wall. Big runouts, inadequate attention to getting solid gear, rushing everything. The inability to scale one's practices to the actual situation, instead employing a one-size-fits-all approach to risk mitigation is, to me, the mark of an out-of-touch and so dangerous climber.

My personal feeling is that the leader has a powerful moral obligation to protect the second. By and large, the leader gets to choose the level of risk they wish to confront, but the second is stuck with the choices the leader has made for them. If protection can't be arranged, then the second is going to have to deal with some possibly dangerous climbing, but this should never be because the leader couldn't be bothered, was too ignorant, was too spaced-out, or was acting like he or she was on the North Wall of the Eiger when in fact the climb is on a two-pitch crag.

200 foot crag?

Pffft ... Just lower the second down when they freak out

You climb as you train ... If yr placing tons of gear on moderate climbs at the crags, chances are youll have issues when it matter on longer climbs

Now if theres good gear and the ability to protect the second on a cragging climb you should do so

But alot of these seconds need to realize that all the top rope comforts at a well groomed, nicely protected, single rope length cliff may not be available on multi

Safety is not gear alone or even primarily the gear .... You climbing skill and good judgement are just if not more important, even as a second

I see folks treat the multis here like it was cragging ... In fact theres been climbing groups dragging groups of 10+ newbies up multies (upper chief, ice climbs)

The question if yr a beginner on this thread is do you want to just bang, or do you want to prepare for beyond the crag

I suggest that newbies downclimb everything the lead or top rope up so they develop the confidence on moderates to NOT fall as a start

;)

bearbreeder wrote:200 foot crag? Pffft ... Just lower the second down when they freak out You climb as you train ... If yr placing tons of gear on moderate climbs at the crags, chances are youll have issues when it matter on longer climbs Now if theres good gear and the ability to protect the second on a cragging climb you should do so But alot of these seconds need to realize that all the top rope comforts at a well groomed, nicely protected, single rope length cliff may not be available on multi Safety is not gear alone or even primarily the gear .... You climbing skill and good judgement are just if not more important, even as a second I see folks treat the multis here like it was cragging ... In fact theres been climbing groups dragging groups of 10+ newbies up multies (upper chief, ice climbs) The question if yr a beginner on this thread is do you want to just bang, or do you want to prepare for beyond the crag I suggest that newbies downclimb everything the lead or top rope up so they develop the confidence on moderates to NOT fall as a start ;)

Saved. So much to learn!

;)

T Roper wrote: Saved. So much to learn! ;)

Im so happy for the day when you finally get out of top roping at the gym

It will be a joyous occasion !!!

;)

Old lady H wrote:Em, thanks! I'm prepared to anchor myself, but prefer not to. I've also floated around with my feet off the ground plenty, and being airborne doesn't bother me at all.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that the belayer needs to be anchored to prevent them from being lifted off the ground - if you're standing on the ground there's a different set of conditions that need to be considered in the anchor/don't anchor decision.

If the belayer is not on the ground, and the leader falls before they get any gear in (or if the gear they placed does not hold), the leader will fall to the ground and the belayer will be pulled off their stance/pinnacle/ledge and follow the belayer to the ground. Of course, you need to assess each situation, but if you are belaying somewhere above the ground, and you are unanchored, and it is possible for the climber to fall past your ledge (or bounce and tumble off it, whatever), then you are trusting BOTH of your lives to A. the integrity of the climber's first piece of gear and B. their climbing ability to not fall until they place that gear. Until they get at least one solid piece of gear in, you don't really have a belay so much as a suicide pact of mutually assured destruction.

bearbreeder wrote:200 foot crag? Pffft ... Just lower the second down when they freak out,

No need to lower. In the situation I described they don't freak out because they think they have a top rope, but take an 80 foot pendulum into the ground when their single top anchor unexpectedly blows. That being the anchor that at least should have been doubled up.

bearbreeder wrote: You climb as you train ... If yr placing tons of gear on moderate climbs at the crags, chances are you'll have issues when it matter on longer climbs

I guess this is true of some people, but most people, thankfully, are capable of adjusting their behavior to the the actual, rather than some imagined, reality. Personally, I've totally sewn up crag climbs when I can, but have done scores of R and X-rated leads and even more free solos up to 5.10, as well as a ton of mountaineering with very widely-spaced and sometimes non-existent protection. And I've done a lot of climbing with people who are a lot better than I am---a number of who have international reputations---and they do the same, which is to adjust their climbing and protecting strategies to the realities of their current position. I think folks should learn to climb the climb they are on and not make it into something it isn't.

If you want to practice control under stress (a very good thing to be able to do) then do some free-soloing and don't impose the risks you want to train for on a second.

bearbreeder wrote: The question if yr a beginner on this thread is do you want to just bang, or do you want to prepare for beyond the crag. I suggest that newbies downclimb everything they lead or top rope up so they develop the confidence on moderates to NOT fall as a start

I certainly agree with that. Gym and sport climbing teaches you to go for it, because their are no consequences for failure, and because the difficulties are hard enough that you have to go for it. The problem is that people may scale that approach back to easier routes with hugely more serious consequences for falling off, and then they become an accident waiting to happen.

rgold wrote: No need to lower. In the situation I described they don't freak out because they think they have a top rope, but take an 80 foot pendulum into the ground when their single top anchor unexpectedly blows. That being the anchor that at least should have been doubled up. I guess this is true of some people, but most people, thankfully, are capable of adjusting their behavior to the the actual, rather than some imagined, reality. Personally, I've totally sewn up crag climbs when I can, but have done scores of R and X-rated leads and even more free solos up to 5.10, as well as a ton of mountaineering with very widely-spaced and sometimes non-existent protection. And I've done a lot of climbing with people who are a lot better than I am---a number of who have international reputations---and they do the same, which is to adjust their climbing and protecting strategies to the realities of their current position. I think folks should learn to climb the climb they are on and not make it into something it isn't. If you want to practice control under stress (a very good thing to be able to do) then do some free-soloing and don't impose the risks you want to train for on a second. I certainly agree with that. Gym and sport climbing teaches you to go for it, because their are no consequences for failure, and because the difficulties are hard enough that you have to go for it. The problem is that people may scale that approach back to easier routes with hugely more serious consequences for falling off, and then they become an accident waiting to happen.

And what exactly is this "extra risk" on the second on running it out on staight up trad climbs???

Were not talking about subjecting them to massive prndulums here ... But about placing minimal gear on relatively "safe" straight lines

Even on traverses sure put in a bit more gear if yr "playing guide" ... But realistically are you going to double and tripple every piece ? ... Even if you protect a traverse well a failure of a piece can always have consequences ... Just keep folks off those climbs if they cant do it

The point simply is as a second and as a beginner you need to get it out of your head that following is safe

Yes your leader should make it as safe as REASONABLY possible but the ultimate responsibility lies with you to have the climbing and judgement skills ... Or to develop them

Dont expect to guided unless yr paying for a guide

As for "free soloing" ... Its not like theres a shortage of that evilness out here ... Some folks simply dont climb with rope

Folks do laps on these climbs up and down ... From last week

Crack and beer

"Miso on toppu roperu!!!"

bearbreeder wrote: And what exactly is this "extra risk" on the second on running it out on staight up trad climbs??? Were not talking about subjecting them to massive prndulums here

Watchoo mean "we?". It appears you started arguing with what I said...

...without reading what I said...

...made up your own things to argue about...

...and then argued about them!

Fair enough, I even agree with some of your points. The second is not completely safe and ought to rid themselves of that mindset as soon as possible. Got it. Let's just stop pretending you are addressing anything I was saying, ok?

Over and out.

rgold wrote: Watchoo mean "we?". It appears you started arguing with what I said... ...without reading what I said... ...made up your own things to argue about... ...and then argued about them! Fair enough, I even agree with some of your points. The second is not completely safe and ought to rid themselves of that mindset as soon as possible. Got it. Let's just stop pretending you are addressing anything I was saying, ok? Over and out.

aye ruuuuuuv u 2 !!!!



the "solution" for all this simple ... just use a grigri !!!

;)

rgold wrote:It appears you started arguing with what I said... ...without reading what I said... ...made up your own things to argue about... ...and then argued about them!

Welcome to the internet. Looks like you have a life, unlike some people.

F*ck. This climbing shit sounds dangerous.

I vote we bolt all the cracks. That'll prevent zippers and save us from having to carry all those funny cams and nuts and stuff.