What knot would you use?

BigFeet wrote: What materials are you planning on building this anchor with? What is shown in the picture? Are the fence posts far back from the edge to where you will have to make two of the above picture and connect someway to a masterpoint? Is there anything else to back up the fence posts with? There may be a more simple approach if we could get an idea of what the environment looks like where you plan on building this top rope anchor. If you have all that gear already... go for it, but .

I can go out there and take a photo maybe.

There are two fences running parallel to the cliff top. The fences are about 8 inches apart from each other. And about 2 feet or so from the edge of the cliff so no need to extend the anchor with anything. The master point and top rope biners can reach over the edge. The fences are metal chain link. And the metal posts of the fence are anchored down into the rock of the cliff and then, what looks like concreted in. The fences both have metal cross-members running about 2 inches off the ground. I don't know how else to describe it. It's just a typical solid metal fence you'd find in a national park or something. Like the metal "gate" that's at the top of Taft Point in Yosemite. Only chain link.

BigFeet wrote:you can simplify the whole setup with one static rope and a couple of locking carabiners

You mean like the photo I posted in the OP lol?

Um, no. I mean like this. lol

Now you have redundancy built into the anchor using only one piece of gear. You can extend or shorten it. It is easy to inspect. You only need a few pieces of gear. Only three knots needed.

What you show above is fine, but I would want a second anchor point and not just one "fence post" to keep me safe. Your solution, if wanting to be redundant, would need a second one of your anchors on another post - more gear.

You can keep this one as your first anchor class... free of charge.

BigFeet wrote:Um, no. I mean like this. lol Now you have redundancy built into the anchor using only one piece of gear. You can keep this one as your first anchor class... free of charge.

Yes, I was thinking of a setup similar to that as well. However I can't use biners on the fence posts, they are too thick.

But, I could tie figure eights around the fence posts like in your photo (just sans biners), but I was told every knot you tie weakens the rope. And in your photo, you have three knots. Is there any credence to this?

On a BFT (big f'n tree), I'd go with a tensionless hitch. If I had to tie the ends of the cord together, probably a flemish bend. Easy to inspect and untie.

BigFeet wrote:What you show above is fine, but I would want a second anchor point and not just one "fence post" to keep me safe. Your solution, if wanting to be redundant, would need a second one of your anchors on another post - more gear.

Yes, two anchors seems reasonable to me. You make it sound like it's a big chore. Two ropes. Two biners. Is that too much gear?

FourT6and2 wrote: You mean like the photo I posted in the OP lol?

Did I take this the wrong way? Hard to tell intentions sometimes, but I read it as" Dude, I already posted what you are describing, idiot... haha."

Yes, two is good. And yes, ditch the carabiners and tie directly to the posts. Yes, knots weaken the rope, but you will not be applying enough force/load to cause a failure while top roping.

The anchor in my picture is very easy and quick to tie and adjust. Figure eight around one post. Dangle a loop down to where you want your masterpoint, and then bring the rest up to the other post and tie. Center the dangled loop where you want your masterpoint and tie... whatever knot you would like.

It is not a big chore, it just takes some steps out of what you illustrated.

BigFeet wrote: Did I take this the wrong way? Hard to tell intentions sometimes, but I read it as" Dude, I already posted what you are describing, idiot... haha." Yes, two is good. And yes, ditch the carabiners and tie directly to the posts. Yes, knots weaken the rope, but you will not be applying enough force/load to cause a failure while top roping. The anchor in my picture is very easy and quick to tie and adjust. Figure eight around one post. Dangle a loop down to where you want your masterpoint, and then bring the rest up to the other post and tie. Center the dangled loop where you want your masterpoint and tie... whatever knot you would like. It is not a big chore, it just takes some steps out of what you illustrated.

Thank you :)

FourT6and2 wrote: Thank you :)

You are welcome.

Make sure to ask questions in the class you are planning on taking. Not just the what do I do here, but more to the why do I do this here. If the mentor can't or won't answer... find someone else. Don't be afraid to ask on this forum too. You may get a pissy answer, but you will get a more rounded look at possible solutions to whatever issues you may come across.

Double/triple check yourself and whoever else is with you. If you don't feel safe... back yourself up, or back off and reassess the situation. Pad the edges of where your rope will be running, if possible. Be safe and have fun.

Good luck to you. :)

BigFeet wrote: You are welcome. Make sure to ask questions in the class you are planning on taking. Not just the what do I do here, but more to the why do I do this here. If the mentor can't or won't answer... find someone else. Don't be afraid to ask on this forum too. You may get a pissy answer, but you will get a more rounded look at possible solutions to whatever issues you may come across. Double/triple check yourself and whoever else is with you. If you don't feel safe... back yourself up, or back off and reassess the situation. Pad the edges of where your rope will be running, if possible. Be safe and have fun. Good luck to you. :)

Oh believe me, I'm full of questions. And I always need to understand the how and why behind things. Doubly so in a situation where life and limb are at risk.

Michael Schneider wrote: Actually , that response is terrifying... Yes of course two lockers is redundant at the master point...That was covered . As to fence posts, The depth and strength, can only be assumed.... You're probably okay, but ... If you must try this keep the anchor as low on the posts as possible Use 4 not just 2 and get the length right, so that you do not or can not shock load the anchor This means stay directly below the master point ( the plumb line, not off to a side) do not climb above it ( the master point) Save up and hire a guide from Bob Gains' outfit ..in JTree, Vertical adventures... I'm pretty sure... Paging mr Gordon... Todd ... Ya out there for this one? Hey Michael C - Watchung Foever!,

My response was to the pic of the tree anchor, not a fence post that I now see that he was asking about.

Okay,
Yes, just so you understand, given the lack of more info, you can not tell if that tree is any
good. You can see an extensive amount of soil compaction, exposed roots, loose soil, and degraded bark from somewhere.
All of those facts added together make it NOT "bomber",

I'm sorry that is how I see it I always promote safer climbing practices .

I can not imagine that the non description of the type of rock
No picture or the actual location of the fence, Can add up to - go for it.
The condition of the rock at the edge, the method of drilling used, and the depth of the holes most likely mere pockets in fractured rock must be assessed before any judgement on the relative safety of a top rope anchor can be made,
We have no info on the climber or climbers weight, to be able to figure the forces that might be generated, when or if a shock load is applied ....

I'm sorry to say all this and not be able to respond, I have to go but will try to come back
Later, good luck, we all went through a bunch of less than perfect circumstances .....
Y MMV, so roll the dice ...

how to tell if a tree is BOMBAH ...

kick the tree a few times ... shake it to death ... if it goes WHOOSH WHOOSH and squirrels start dropping out of the sky its nadda guuuud

if the tree doesnt move and the squirrels are laughing and chucking acorns down at you its BOMBAH !!!

thats all there is to it folks

to the OP i suggest going with a real live person who knows what they are doing and learning off them ... critical safety practices is not what you want to be "learning" on da intrawebz, especially online forums

;)

Just want to reiterate that it may be hard to accurately judge the strength of a fence and so I can't recommend using it for an anchor.

You mentioned (I think) anchoring off of a crossmember and not the actual fence post? This seems like a bad idea to me, seeing as the force would be applied further away from the post (similar to why anchoring high on a tree is usually not as ideal as anchoring at the base, physics and all)

Always happy to be corrected if I'm wrong

Cotopaxi wrote:Just want to reiterate that it may be hard to accurately judge the strength of a fence and so I can't recommend using it for an anchor. You mentioned (I think) anchoring off of a crossmember and not the actual fence post? This seems like a bad idea to me, seeing as the force would be applied further away from the post (similar to why anchoring high on a tree is usually not as ideal as anchoring at the base, physics and all) Always happy to be corrected if I'm wrong

I'm just gonna take a photo of this thing when I get a chance so y'all get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

But here's what Mountain Project Route Guide says about this spot:

"To set up a top rope, walk around the left side of the rock and climb the loose rock in the trees for 20 feet or so. This will lead you to fence and a path, which will lead up to some rusty (but solid) chains that are directly above the main crack. Conceivably you could also top rope other sections using the fence for an anchor."

Having been there the other day, and seeing the chains, I don't know if I'd top rope off them. Rappel, maybe. But I'd feel more comfortable making my own anchor around the fence posts—which the chains are also connected to. So if the fence is good enough for the chains, which I'm guessing people use, I think it should be ok for an anchor.

Mr. Schneider,

The context of the "go for it" comment was actually relating to the materials being used to build the anchor, and the anchor construction in particular. Not what the anchor was to be attached to.

YMMV indeed, for it will be up to the individual's discretion as to what may be safe or not. If anything, we can assist the OP in what is known. I would believe that to be better than to leave those who are new, and willing to go as far as posting a picture for critique, on their own. Every response could have been something to the effect of; "hire a guide, and read a bunch of books", I guess.

I'm with you on the safety aspect, completely.

We don't have all the answers to the problem, but any issues, concerns, or tips that have been presented should be acknowledged, for this at best can help with one part of the equation to solve a complete problem of possible efficiency, safety, or whatnot.

By the way, anyone new out there... read a bunch of books, and hire/find someone to teach you. Seriously.

That tree is MORE than bomber. You could winch a semi-truck out of the mud off that thing. It seems like a lot of climbers fail to realize how strong trees actually are. Where I live, we mostly have palm trees. Palm trees are not especially known for their deep root systems, and they are weaker than many other types of trees. Further, they only tend to grow to about 1' diameter and then they stop growing. None the less, our local slacklining group rigs longlines in excess of 300' with tensions as high as 2500lbf off these guys and the load is typically 5 - 8' up, not at the base. I have never seen a palm tree flex under the load let alone fall down.

Dont worry about it, nearly all of trees that are alive and reasonably large will hold more than your strongest biner multiplied several times. Even a large bush is strong enough to rap/ TR off if needed.