Mountain Project Logo

Grigri gym accident, 40' to the floor

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

All this talk when its clear as day the brake hand was not on the rope.

No burn=no brake hand

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
T Roper wrote:All this talk when its clear as day the brake hand was not on the rope. No burn=no brake hand
In his first post the OP says both hands were burnt severely.

Then in the post with the photo of a blistered finger he says the brake hand shows no burns 3 days later.

From which one might conclude that the brake was not severely burnt but did show some marking.

Hence at some point his brake hand was trying to do something. The question is what.

To the OP: where on his brake hand were the marks? Thanks
B Jolley · · Utah · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 172
David Coley wrote: In his first post the OP says both hands were burnt severely. Then in the post with the photo of a blistered finger he says the brake hand shows no burns 3 days later. From which one might conclude that the brake was not severely burnt but did show some marking. Hence at some point his brake hand was trying to do something. The question is what. To the OP: where on his brake hand were the marks? Thanks
Initial assessment both his hands looked pretty bad, left hand is the only hand that had actual burns. Right hand had bright red lines from the rope looking like 1st deg burns, turned out to be superficial. At the time of the incident, he said severe rope burns, then immediately applied ice to his hands. Turned out not to be as severe as initially thought.

When time allows I am going to do some testing to see if I can recreate the scenario. I am going to setup a test rig that I can drop 150lbs. (my weight) from and test different parameters with my Grigri to see if I can get some results that could point out the main cause of the incident. I'm very curious to see if added pressure to the top hand will in fact restrict the cam from rotating fully.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

I sort of have to agree with Cycle. I have read many accident reports about the phenomenon of overgripping the climber-side strand of the rope and how it leads to an accident, even with an adequate grip on the belayer's side of the rope. However, I also tried to replicate it and I was unable to. Accordingly, I would be really interested in seeing a video if someone can replicate the phenomenon and film it.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Super Fluke wrote: Right hand had bright red lines from the rope looking like 1st deg burns, turned out to be superficial.
Where were these lines? Fingers? Palm? And how near the thumb. I'm trying to get an idea of the position and orientation of the hand. The marks were where the friction was. This might be different if the hand was gripping hard compared with the rope just moving fast through the hand. If he was gripping then one might expect opposing marks; if not, just a line on one side.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

....for example the blister in the photo possibly came about because the rope went through an angle across that finger (and it was gripping)

This is normal because it is very difficult to hold the climber's side rope without kinking it unless you put your hand right on top of the belay device. The higher the hand the bigger the kink. To get a straight line you have to really cock your wrist. Try it.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I suspect many instances of gripping the climber side of the rope during a catch is to stabilize, which needs to be trained out of one's natural reaction, and points to the importance also of your position relative to the expected pull.

Repeatedly catching falls while consciously using correct technique and reactions is the way to over ride your initial natural reaction. So, practice catches where you get yanked into the air and don't grab the rope to balance.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

I think we need to ask petzl directly if gripping the climber side tightly can overide the cam

Despite them saying so explicitely in their grigri video

Or well end up with 20 pages ....

Hmmmm

;)

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

First, belaying a leader with a grigri is a pain in the ass.

Second, SuperFluke, I'd find a new partner--though some will disagree (this has come up before..). If you drop me, we are no longer friends--hell, I won't even be friendly.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
bearbreeder wrote:I think we need to ask petzl directly if gripping the climber side tightly can overide the cam Despite them saying so explicitely in their grigri video...)
...AND on their website at petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belay… .

The question about non-brake hand gripping seems to be shrouded in mystery. Petzl says it is a problem in at least two different places, posters to the Jim Ewing thread also claim it is a problem, others try to replicate it and can't. One thing that is pretty clear is that lots of very experienced climbers grip hard with the non-brake hand, especially but not exclusively when they are being lifted, so the non-brake hand grip certainly doesn't always unlock the Grigri cam; that result is probably a rare occurrence requiring a combination of conditions that does not seem to have been identified.

Here's a possibility: unconscious brake hand lifting, which is a pretty natural response to being lifted and might be even more natural if the belayer is initiating lifting with a jump. Here's a shot of that in action from the Petzl video: Daila Ojeda is certainly very experienced (and claims to have never belayed with anything but a Grigri!). Here's a still from the Petzl video of her at the beginning of a catch that launches her way up into the air. She is clearly hanging on hard with her non-brake hand, but she's also reflexively flung her brake hand up as she starts to rise. If, in this position, her non-brake grasp managed to unlock the cam, her brake hand position would allow the rope to run.

Unconscious brake hand lifting?

Reflexive motions like this are not part of the belayer's conscious actions, and it wouldn't be at all surprising if the belayer claimed and believed that they had the rope locked down the entire time.

If unconscious belay hand lifting really does happen, its potential consequences for an ATC belay would be just as catastrophic.

By the way, this is what hands look like when gripping hard and 40 feet of rope run through them

This was from an ATC failure to brake (see earthworksclimbing.blogspot… ) but 40 feet of rope gripped hard is 40 feet of rope.
Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

^ Corrected link:

earthworksclimbing.blogspot…

cyclestupor · · Woodland Park, Colorado · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 91
rgold wrote: If, in this position, her non-brake grasp managed to unlock the cam, her brake hand position would allow the rope to run.
I tried this sort of brake hand position (though admittedly not in a real life belay situation). I weighted the climbers end to get the Gri to lock up. Sat down in my harness. Introduced a bit of slack on the brake strand with my brake hand in a forward position. Then grabbed the climbers strand and pulled myself up with enough force to disengage the cam. After that I tried several things while holding the brake strand firmly, but still in the forward position with a bit of slack...

I dropped myself by letting go of climbers strand. In this case it locked up quickly but slack was gone from brake strand. Brake hand didn't slip at all.

I slowly relaxed my left arm. Slack was pulled through the gri gri until brake strand was taught. Then the cam engaged. Brake hand didn't slip.

I dropped myself by relaxing my left hand grip enough to let the rope slide. Same results.

I dont think the position of your brake hand matters with the gri gri (though in practice I keep it by my hip).

I've seem Petzl's documentation over and over. While they do call grabbing the climbers strand a bad habit, they also have instructional videos where the belayer grabs it. In the caption for this pic petzl.com/sfc/servlet.sheph… they say the belayer prevents the cam from rotating, but they clearly show the belayer with no hand on the brake strand.

I suspect petzl warns against grabbing the climbers side because they are worried the belayers might reflexively slide their hand down the rope and bump the cam with their hand, which would be bad. This is is the only failure mode I can come up with where the brake strand is secure.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Old Lady, definitely not; the device is designed to be used with a soft catch, as this is usually best practice for lead falls.

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
rgold wrote: ....Here's a possibility: unconscious brake hand lifting.....
This is my theory as well, though I don't personally have evidence.

I really believe that if the brake hand is actually exerting downward force, not just "grip," then the GriGri will lock (provided cam is not blocked).

As you mention, unconscious brake hand lifting would be catastrophic every single time with an ATC belay. On the other hand, you can get away with it 90% of the time on a GriGri. As a result, it's not hard to believe that someone overly accustomed to the GriGri might let that aspect of good belay technique go to the wayside.
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Ted Pinson wrote:Old Lady, definitely not; the device is designed to be used with a soft catch, as this is usually best practice for lead falls.
Even if the jump is before the rope is tensioned, at the start of the fall???

My main problem the few hours I spent trying, was that I couldn't get rope through fast enough, without the grigri jamming. I'm really short, so I have to be on my toes and move pretty fast to keep up with my climbers. Because of that, both hands are active, so in my case, I will stick with the ATC, for now.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Nah, the cams will still engage, you'll just get a regular hard catch. Did you learn how to use your thumb to disengage the cam while feeding? With practice, I find feeding a Grigri actually easier/quicker than an ATC.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

Thanks, Ted. Unless you're pretty light, you'll get a soft catch on lead anyway, as I go airborne! My grigri experience was in a class, with a good and patient instructor. I'm also generally really dexterous, good with hand work, so it made me pretty leery of grigris, for myself, for belaying. And the ATC is nicely hardwired, now, too!

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
cyclestupor wrote:I don't think the position of your brake hand matters with the gri gri...
...and your claim is in line with the DAV's review. Pictured is the column for the Grigri with the green angle representing the range of effective braking action of the device. (But...these tests obviously did not take place in the presence of non-brake hand pressure...)

Grigri effective braking angle

So maybe "unconscious belay hand lifting" isn't so critical? What does Petzl know that we don't?

cyclestupor wrote:I suspect petzl warns against grabbing the climbers side because they are worried the belayers might reflexively slide their hand down the rope and bump the cam with their hand, which would be bad.
That doesn't make sense to me---gripping the rope with the non-brake hand will keep it away from the device. I don't know the explanation, but I don't see how this could be it.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Old: yeah, feeding slack with a Grigri is tricky for most people at first, it just takes practice. It's also a lot easier with thinner ropes...I like to use anything less than 10 mm when using a Grigri, as you can usually feed without disengaging the cam. For thicker ropes, you just have to get used to using your break hand thumb to press the cam lever. Kudos to you for belaying people heavier than you on an ATC...I find it a huge pain in the butt, especially if they're working a project and having to take/fall a lot.

Paul Hutton · · Nephi, UT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

The hand on the leader-side of the GriGri stayed tight. The rope was kept so tight, that the leader would've had a hard catch and possibly bang his knees against the wall at the end of the short arc in the fall. When there's sufficient slack coming outta the GriGri, the shock load incurred on the dynamic rope during a fall will apply force to the cam, causing it to move in the one and only direction that it CAN move--forward, against the rope.

I've messed up with the GriGri, too.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Grigri gym accident, 40' to the floor"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.