Route name: Negro Girls

Fat Dad wrote:^^^^ And you are qualified to pass judgment on this issue because...

Because Owen's words themselves show his intent to force his view onto anyone's differing response rather than directly discuss the difference.

Judgment? Owen has already cast judgment on the FA's intent ... several times in this thread ... and I say this without regard to Owen's initial question / challenge.

Fat Dad wrote:This thread reminds of conversations I've had with some older lawyers who had litigated sexual harassment case back in the day, where they had the unfortunate task of trying to convince older judges that smacking a woman co-worker on the ass or talking about her breasts (on the job of course) was not just boys being boys.

You sure you want to conflate a route name with physical violence, sexual assault, and workplace harassment?

owen david wrote:...and mountains.

Context is important to understand the issue in the article of your link: A lawsuit about a mountain named after a man's race to honor his ultimate sacrifice (i.e., giving his life to benefit others) ... rather than the lawsuit's aim which is to use his personal name to honor him.

The Army's apology has basically the same context as the mountain naming issue. Generally, I personally prefer folks call me out by my name rather than by my race or gender or whatever. But sometimes people don't and in that I generally give them the benefit of any doubt.

Edit to add: I've been watching a videotaped interview with Roy - "1/16/2015 CLIMBTALK - I personally do not know him. Still, I would not be surprised if he was attempting to refer to himself in a self-effacing way when he named LWF. To be clear, I am hypothesizing about the man's intent as that has been called into question here.

owen david wrote:However, you need not look for cryptic or obscure clues to a route names defamatory intent when "Limp Wristed Faggot" exists. Go figure, it's another Roy McClenahan FA.

It simply is not this ^^^^ clear, Owen ... even in the case of "Limp Wristed Faggot".

Think about a hypothetical context where Roy is homosexual. I don't know that he is or isn't. But if that were truly his sexual orientation - or even bisexual, then LWF's primary interpretation is that of a self-effacing man, humorous - perhaps even an invitation to like-minded folks. And all the other assumptions you've been implying about him being a bigot, racist, etc.. speak more towards your inner demons (which many of us have) and not so much about Roy.

Edit to add: In referring to "inner demons", I am not referring to you as a bigot, racist, etc..

I love it when white men think they get to decide when something is offensive and when it's not.

OP better call these folks and let them know they are using an offensive name. I'm sure they will take your concern seriously...by seriously laughing at your dumb ass.

I neglected one from Roy's growing list of possible sins ...

Bill Lawry wrote:But if that were truly his sexual orientation - or even bisexual, then LWF's primary interpretation is that of a self-effacing man, humorous - perhaps even an invitation to like-minded folks.

... braggart.

owen david wrote: I was out enjoying nature one day in Joshua Tree National Park. When I realized that the beautiful formation I was climbing on was marred by an oppressive, offensive name that some guy made up, it ruined my day/month and every subsequent thought associated with that formation. What's worse is that he marred another formation with something just as offensive. Why not let others who are experiencing it for the first time do so without having to endure one persons' bigoted messages (intended or not). I love the humor in route names and don't want to change any of that. Change the names into what you "really meant" a lyric...clarify the names or change them to honor THE MONUMENT. An FA can change a name if their ego will allow them to. The future will only be a harsher critic to that climber's legacy.

Owen Really? Are you so weak minded and whiny that someone's actions, 20 years ago ruined your experience? You couldn't, even if the intent was racist, put that aside and enjoy the formation? I'm a pretty liberal guy, but weeping over something like this for "day/month and every subsequent thought" sounds self absorbed.
As for changing route names, I actually asked Mike about changing the name of Greaseballs and Junglebunnies and he flatly refused. He feels like we were having fun at our own expense and it was a good time in our lives. And I'm not the black guy.

Tolerance runs both ways. We should be sensitive to those who may be offended without resorting to personal attacks while at the same time being understanding of route setters place in history, environment, and the right to title their work.

Roy Suggett wrote:Tolerance runs both ways. We should be sensitive to those who may be offended without resorting to personal attacks while at the same time being understanding of route setters place in history, environment, and the right to title their work.

Right- Just like this guy clearly had a right to title his work.

mountainproject.com/v/black…

This message brought to you by the letter S (for sarcasm).

Yes, he or she did have the right. We might not approve of their choice but in a free speech country we can try and educate them toward more sensitivity (free speech) while at the same time not disparaging them and their right to title their line (free speech). Oh, and we could also not climb that route.

A partner and I named a route Redneck on a Rope because we're both Rednecks. I hope it hasn't ruined anyone's month. But then again, it's actually PC to make fun of Rednecks.

frank minunni wrote:My partner, Mike Freeman, who is black and I put up a couple of routes in the 80s with PC incorrect names. One is Blackboys and Backsliders (I'm an ex born again Christian) and Greaseballs and Jungle Bunnies (I'm Italian). We were poking fun at ourselves. Are we now supposed to change the names to be politically correct? I don't think so. I still find the names amusing. Unless you know what was going through the first ascentionist's head at the time, you can't really know what the name meant.

I have not done the black boys route,,but greaseballs is a really good climb. If you did the f/a..call the route whatever

Black Orphius,

See, all climbers are racist, even in Vegas!

john strand wrote: I have not done the black boys route,,but greaseballs is a really good climb. If you did the f/a..call the route whatever

Thanks John. I actually wanted to rename it "Beyond the Zero" in homage to Gravity's Rainbow. Quite a good little story on the FA as well.

I bet Frank....Greaseballs and gravity's was my best day ever at the Gunks.

Anybody offended by these names had better not look up some other fun route names in the Gunks or really fun names in Oz.

christopher adams wrote:I love it when white men think they get to decide when something is offensive and when it's not.

Exactly, EXACTLY.

frank minunni wrote:My partner, Mike Freeman, who is black and I put up a couple of routes in the 80s with PC incorrect names. One is Blackboys and Backsliders (I'm an ex born again Christian) and Greaseballs and Jungle Bunnies (I'm Italian). We were poking fun at ourselves. Are we now supposed to change the names to be politically correct? I don't think so. I still find the names amusing. Unless you know what was going through the first ascentionist's head at the time, you can't really know what the name meant.

I find it interesting that some folks here are offended by proxy at "negro girls", but don't seem to be interested in challenging you on the above names. I guess when you realize there may actually be a bit of history or self-effacing flippantry behind some names, it just sucks the fun out of complaining.

To be clear, I'm saying this as someone with the sense of humor of an 8 year old, so I hope the more mature readers of MP don't take it personally.

owen david wrote: Exactly, EXACTLY.

Ummm...I think you may be missing the point.

ubu wrote: Ummm...I think you may be missing the point.

In a very big way!