Grigri gym accident, 40' to the floor

Old lady H wrote:Here's a slightly tangential grigri question: I'm an ATC user, and just started training to be a route setter at my gym. They use one ascender, a grigri, and a retired gym rope to work on the wall (tieing backup knots in the rope below the grigri). Would it be ridiculous for me to add a prussik above the gri? Not worried about it, but my right (brake) hand "complained" every time I let go. Pleased to see that, actually, but I do expect to need two hands. Thanks! H.

Yes it would be ridiculous. :) Tie lots of backup knots and you're 100% fine.

Anyone else keep one hand one the brake and one on climbers side pulling gently in opposition to keep the device locked when not feeding/taking slack? Am I way off?

Feels strange to me to not have a hand on the climbers side as the device just hangs free with less control and can do stuff like cross-loading the biner and such.

IMO yes it would be ridiculous and cumbersome to add a prussik. I feel quite comfortable tieing backup knots, if you really feel uncomfortable you can attach a sling from your belay loop to the ascender. Also if you feel super uncomfortable with overhand on a bight backup knots you can throw a carabiner through the loop to unsure it doesn't untie itself, there is no way that this can pass through the gri gri. Also a double action autolocker on the gri gri adds some security, a friend of mine had his screwlock unscrew itself while jugging and actually come undone from the gri-gri, a freak accident perhaps but something to keep in mind.

This wasn't a gri gri accident. It was a bad belayer accident. End of discussion.

Yes I blame the belayer. He burned his hand because he grabbed the rope above the belay device

I'll just leave this here... they all go together anyway.

mountainproject.com/v/anoth…

Tim Lutz wrote: Top hand gripping the rope did not allow the cam to engage. This is the correct answer. There is nothing wrong your Gri or anyone else's. User error.

+2
Actually, had the belay let go with both hands and waved them wildly about like he was on fire, the cam would have most likely engaged and you would likely not have hit the ground.

I would definitely take extensive time to retrain your belayer. S/he did not use the device properly.

Glad you are ok! Lucky bastard!

matt c. wrote: +2 Actually, had the belay let go with both hands and waved them wildly about like he was on fire, the cam would have most likely engaged and you would likely not have hit the ground. I would definitely take extensive time to retrain your belayer. S/he did not use the device properly. Glad you are ok! Lucky bastard!

Lucky indeed. I was hesitant to climb that day, I had been sick all week and wasn't really up to it. I went thinking I could just sloth up something easy. I must of had a fever or something cause he dropped me like I was hot.

Dylan B wrote: I.e., is there enough of a bend in the rope through the device that it will function like an ATC in the event the cam is jammed open?

No. You might be able to catch a small fall, but if the cam does not engage the friction provided by the device is much less than that of an ATC.

Ryanb. wrote:Anyone else keep one hand one the brake and one on climbers side pulling gently in opposition to keep the device locked when not feeding/taking slack? Am I way off? Feels strange to me to not have a hand on the climbers side as the device just hangs free with less control and can do stuff like cross-loading the biner and such.

I do, and that's an acceptable (optimal even) method as it keeps the cam in the locked position when you are at idle.

I used to think the grigri was the safest device out there but now that I've been hanging out in a gym quite a bit in the last couple of years(for the first time in 20 years of climbing) watching how people use them I have come full circle. Sure, I have my trusted partners who can catch me on any device but the amount of people using the quick feed method and never taking their thumb away from that position is kind of scary as hell.

I think this situation here on this thread was pure and simple shit belaying.

It takes serious (if misplaced) commitment to let 40 feet of rope slide through one's non-brake hand at near falling speed and not let go.

PRRose wrote:It takes serious (if misplaced) commitment to let 40 feet of rope slide through one's non-brake hand at near falling speed and not let go.

Yep

Bryan Gilmore wrote:why isn't there a thread like this every time somebody gets into a car accident?

We've seen plenty of news stories of "Unintended Acceleration" due to the driver stepping on THE GAS PEDAL by mistake.

The grigri failure modes are well known and pretty well documented

However most folks dont belay "properly" with a grigri and dont read up on the instructions

Many tend to think that the grigri is what will make them safe and not the other way around

Your failure mode is the climber defeating the cam by pulling on the climber side rope as others have said

With little friction as the cam did not engage, it doesnt matter how hard your belayer held the rope on either side

Grigri (and ATC) users should be taught that the climber side hand is the death hand .... If you use it to hold above the device in a fall, your climber dies

The grigri is actually quite a complex device to use as evidenced by the different feeding modes, and a specific lowering mode

The saving grace is that if used properly it will always catch .... And the failure modes are all known and documented with petzls excellent tutorials

If a belayer ignore these instructions, just walk away .... Before decking hopefully

;)

Since nobody has said it yet....

YER GONNA DIE!

bearbreeder wrote:With little friction as the cam did not engage, it doesnt matter how hard your belayer held the rope on either side

That is simply not true...or at least it has never been recreated. Without a manual defeat (hand on the device or some other obstruction), it does not take a lot of force on the brake end to engage the cam when using an approved diameter rope. The simplest test is just to tie a weight (5 lbs is sufficient for a rope not on the thin end) on the brake end, you can grab/fiddle the other end however you want, it'll lock when the weight is lifted off the ground. We'd have a lot of Grigri solo accidents if that wasn't the case.

Yes, people have had both hands w/ rope burn, but 1) we don't know where the brake hand was (above, to the side or below the device?) and 2) once the rope start zipping, one only needs to touch the rope to get a bad burn.

With that said, it is possible that grabbing the climber side of the rope influenced the position of brake hand (since human don't control their limbs independently), like lifting the brake hand as the other hand is being pulled up, compromising the braking force.

Gloves are always a good idea as well. My ropes are caked in sand dirt cactus ect though.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea reboot. I've yet to see the "tug the climber side disengages the cam" trick work, but then again I haven't tried it on an actual lead fall because I'm not a psychopath...

To be honest, I really don't get where the "tug the climber's rope" impulse comes from. I have never in the gazillion or so lead catches ever felt a temptation or instinct to grab the climber's rope. Is it something about the way people are being taught to lead belay? If someone received lead belay instruction in a gym (as just about all lead climbers nowadays are), how was this habit not stamped out?

The obvious solution is to make gym walls a lot shorter.

reboot wrote: That is simply not true...or at least it has never been recreated. Without a manual defeat (hand on the device or some other obstruction), it does not take a lot of force on the brake end to engage the cam when using an approved diameter rope. The simplest test is just to tie a weight (5 lbs is sufficient for a rope not on the thin end) on the brake end, you can grab/fiddle the other end however you want, it'll lock when the weight is lifted off the ground. We'd have a lot of Grigri solo accidents if that wasn't the case. Yes, people have had both hands w/ rope burn, but 1) we don't know where the brake hand was (above, to the side or below the device?) and 2) once the rope start zipping, one only needs to touch the rope to get a bad burn. With that said, it is possible that grabbing the climber side of the rope influenced the position of brake hand (since human don't control their limbs independently), like lifting the brake hand as the other hand is being pulled up, compromising the braking force.

Read the OPs accident again

If someone grabs tighly with the left hand and especially if that left hand blocks the cam ... The cam may not trigger in a fall .... If it the cam doesnt engage, it doesnt matter how hard you grip

if you grip the climers side of the rope too tightly you risk reducing or even negating the grigris braking ability

6 min in

youtube.com/watch?v=FHdqjjy…

As always we can make this a 20 pager ... Or send an email to petzl .... Do you want to do it or shall i?

The bottom line is that no matter what its dangerous to believe that you can always hold a fall while tightly gripping thr climber strand ... One of these days itll catch up to ya like it did the OP

;)