Mountain Project Logo

Route name: Negro Girls

Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
patto wrote: I would go as far as saying it is a direct link and a clever name for the climb. ....
Of course you would, Roy McClenahan. Thanks for showing up. Now go delete your "patto" profile.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
owen david wrote: Of course you would, Roy McClenahan. Thanks for showing up. Now go delete your "patto" profile.
Lol! Now that is funny!
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
r m wrote:Does anyone know of someone who is actually troubled by the name, or are we all being offended on behalf of some hypothetical person? If you want to do something meaningful about racism forget about harmless route names and make sure your local police department is acting in a fair and reasonable manner.
So what does "Limp Wristed Faggot" mean, r m ?
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
patto wrote: Lol! Now that is funny!
oops, you got me. you and r m have empty profiles and I got the two mixed up.
Paul Hutton · · Nephi, UT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740
Kevin Mokracek wrote:I think it's about time we go through ALL old guidebooks and look for anything that could be offensive and begin the healing. I mean Black Tide in JT, what the heck, what is that supposed to mean??
Search results show that it's a heavy metal band.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Owen:

An empty profile is very far from indicating an empty person or that it is the same person who also has an empty profile.

An empty profile serves to remind me that in, say, the climbing realm I need to get to know someone before I put my life in their hands - regardless of what's written in their profile (or not).

Using an empty profile as evidence to judge someone is simply unfair - about like considering two people with the same skin color as being in fact "the same" person

Bill

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Bill Lawry wrote:Owen: An empty profile is very far from indicating an empty person or that it is the same person who also has an empty profile.
+1
I'd guess that there are far more empty profiles than filled out ones. I'd also guess that a huge number of filled out profiles have never been updated since the initial entry.
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
Paul Hutton wrote: Search results show that it's a heavy metal band.
Search results also show a bunch of articles on "hate crime" (no joke). I did not see the band, although I did google "band lwf (spelled out)" and some punk rock images with swastikas came up (no joke).
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
Bill Lawry wrote:Owen: An empty profile is very far from indicating an empty person or that it is the same person who also has an empty profile. An empty profile serves to remind me that in, say, the climbing realm I need to get to know someone before I put my life in their hands - regardless of what's written in their profile (or not). Using an empty profile as evidence to judge someone is simply unfair - about like considering two people with the same skin color as being in fact "the same" person Bill
True about the partner finding thing you mention.
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
Rob T wrote: If you have such a hard on to take this up with Roy, I'd recommend heading over to SuperTopo where he usually hangs out. No guarantee he'll answer as he was having some health issues last I heard, but a better chance than here if you really want to confront the person who's tormenting you with these uncouth names.
I'm not going to take this up on Super Topo. I'm not a malicious person, I don't want to ruin anyone's life. This was started here and will end here on this MP forum as far as I'm concerned. Think what you will of me, but I do thank everyone for commenting and sharing your opinions. I respect all who did and If I sounded like an ass, it was probably an attempt at humor and levity.

I didn't come here looking for confrontation.
I was out enjoying nature one day in Joshua Tree National Park. When I realized that the beautiful formation I was climbing on was marred by an oppressive, offensive name that some guy made up, it ruined my day/month and every subsequent thought associated with that formation. What's worse is that he marred another formation with something just as offensive. It does such a dishonor to THE MONUMENT to name its walls so disrespectfully and use them as a medium for discrimination. No one has the right to do that, intended or not. And here is the place and time that guide book authors and websites should have better judgement to not publish names that come in just under the radar of "hate crime". A lot of you refer to JT as "THE MONUMENT". Every time I see that phrase in someone's post I'm struck by the respect and joy you (we) have for this place. Why not let others who are experiencing it for the first time do so without having to endure one persons' bigoted messages (intended or not). I love the humor in route names and don't want to change any of that. Change the names into what you "really meant" a lyric...clarify the names or change them to honor THE MONUMENT. An FA can change a name if their ego will allow them to. The future will only be a harsher critic to that climber's legacy.
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
Rob T wrote: That's probably bc the referenced quote refered to Black Tide, not the other route name you found objectionable. Inference isn't your strong suit, is it?
I stand corrected. People get so uptight around here when something is out of context...geez! I guess context IS everything. I'd say my inferences are spot on.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Owen: Hopefully, in your life, you learn to paint in color. Best wishes, Bill

Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
Bill Lawry wrote: I can not speak to the name of that particular route. Even so, in fifteen year's of climbing partners, once in a while I hear someone abbreviate a route name they would rather not speak such as "LA" for "Liberace's A***". I never asked why but my impression was the person did not want to offend others who were within hearing distance by repeating the name out loud (i.e., the person wanted to be 'polite' in someone else's company). One can effectively enforce that your children not use potentially offensive language but not really truly for very long - 13 or 14 years of age if that? And in a formal setting with understood norms / laws (e.g., a court room), those on the side of norms / laws can usually enforce this as well. But for "offensive" route names, they are more obscure than a book in a library - or a wiki page - which actually describe the meaning of said offensive words in great detail ... and I am glad those are largely tolerated in the culture within which I live as much else that I actually value in this vein is also largely tolerated. Quoting for emphasis ...
What setting could be more formal or pristine than ones own mind or headspace while walking through nature.

I dare say I can control what my local police department does even when I am active online in "protesting" their obvious disregard for civil rights.
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
Bill Lawry wrote:Owen: Hopefully, in your life, you learn to paint in color. Best wishes, Bill
bid thee adieu.

Some people are colorblind.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
owen david wrote:When I realized that the beautiful formation I was climbing on was marred by an oppressive, offensive name that some guy made up, it ruined my day/month and every subsequent thought associated with that formation.
How is that name oppressive and offensive? In all these posts you haven't seem to have clarified you views on this.

If you feel offended then that is YOUR prerogative. But your views are far from universal. Maybe I feel offended by the name Joshua Tree. I feel that is an insult to Jews, Christians and Muslims to name a tree after a respected figure in the Holy books.

owen david wrote:Why not let others who are experiencing it for the first time do so without having to endure one persons' bigoted messages (intended or not).
How is the name bigoted. Do you even know what that word means?

While you have the prerogative to claim that you personally are offended. You don't have the prerogative to universally claim a message is bigoted. If you are interpreting it that way then I would suggest you grow up and understand language and bigotry in a broader manner.
Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
patto wrote: Maybe I feel offended by the name Joshua Tree. I feel that is an insult to Jews, Christians and Muslims to name a tree after a respected figure in the Holy books.
I feel you brother. Keep fighting the good fight. You should start your own topic.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

"Why not let others who are experiencing it for the first time do so without having to endure one persons' bigoted messages (intended or not)."

If you understood the meaning of bigot, Owen, you would not have used it in the above sentence.

The meaning is more closely associated with why someone (you) would reply to an illustration by hypothetical example in this manner:

"I feel you brother. Keep fighting the good fight. You should start your own topic."

That is, dogged adherence to one's view as The Single Universal View - no reason to entertain someone's else's view.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

^^^^
And you are qualified to pass judgment on this issue because...

I think Owen was being a bit sarcastic in response to patto's well researched though complete failure to grasp the issue being discussed. I'm not saying that he intended to make fun of anyone, but him inabilty to at least acknowledge that possibilty is kind of sad. Saying that Negro Girls is no worse than White Girls...wow. He could have just said unequivocally that it was a reference to Lou Reed song and been done with it but alas.

My response would have been something along the lines of 'I didn't mean to offend anyone. My attitudes have changed in the twenty years since I did that climb. It was a private joke among friends that has since become public because of guidebooks and the internet. If people think the name is inappropriate, heck its just a stupid route name. I'm happy to change it.'

This thread reminds of conversations I've had with some older lawyers who had litigated sexual harassment case back in the day, where they had the unfortunate task of trying to convince older judges that smacking a woman co-worker on the ass or talking about her breasts (on the job of course) was not just boys being boys.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

Yet again, there is a total failure to articulate why the name is offensive, bigoted or otherwise inappropriate.

If you are worried about the use of the word Negro then I hope you are busy taking up the issue with these organisations as well:
uncf.org/sections/WhoWeAre/…
nlbm.com/

Taylor Owen Brooks · · Los Angeles, Ca · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 45
patto wrote:Yet again, there is a total failure to articulate why the name is offensive, bigoted or otherwise inappropriate. If you are worried about the use of the word Negro then I hope you are busy taking up the issue with these organisations as well: uncf.org/sections/WhoWeAre/… nlbm.com/
When the ARMY admits an error...wow.
I don't think they are refering to soldiers as LWF's either (any more).
Does this qualify as "proof"?

"The U.S. Army has removed a policy that said it was acceptable to refer to black service members as a "Negro" and issued an apology Thursday, two days after CNN reported the regulation."

cnn.com/2014/11/07/politics…

...and mountains.
“Even though the world around them has changed, their mindset has not changed,” Youngblood said. “And sometimes it takes something like this to change a person’s mindset so that they understand we’re now in the 21st century. We’re not back in the 17th century.”

huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/…
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern California
Post a Reply to "Route name: Negro Girls"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.