PAS pissing match

Aleks Zebastian wrote:climbing friend, once your guns are adequately sculpted for most difficult, enjoyable, route, you will not be possible clean on rappel and perhaps must be lowered, yes?

I'm not sure I copy..."Guns are adequately Sculpted"

Do you mean Physical Exhaustion?

Aleks only climbs at the limit.

One move from death. Or glory.

Lightflight wrote: I'm not sure I copy..."Guns are adequately Sculpted" Do you mean Physical Exhaustion?

climbing friend,

I mean through the many years of utilizing your crushing grip on most fierce and steep bouldering rocks and steep climbing rocks, your guns will be grown and sculpted quite nicely, and you will do the flash on route in which you cannot clean on rappel, because it would not be in a straight line up and down, and to flash those straight rocks will become boring because of your considerable guns and technical ability, and strong mind seeking ever greater challenge.

Will S wrote: I've seen more than one partner start climbing the next pitch of a multi-pitch from a semi-hanging belay, and forget to unclip their tether first, effectively getting "short roped" by the PAS/Daisy/sling and almost factor-2-ing onto it when the "short roping" stopped them cold.

Reminds me of this no-name climber at 2:40:

youtube.com/watch?v=pbbvCuI…

Jake Jones wrote: How does a dynamic belay on a lead fall remind you of being short roped by a static tether to an anchor when you forget to disconnect it?

If you had started at 2:40 and watched for about 7 more seconds you would see...

Sharma even says, "Aw Fu****, I forgot I was clipped in"

bearbreeder wrote: first of all if youre clipping the way you describe thats absolutely stupid ... simply tie knots at the end attach the extra slings there to form a ladder and downclip yourself with your PAS and draws to BOTH slings while using the slings as a ladder ... if you do slip theres 60 m of dynamic rope to stretch not to mention that if youre at the limit of 2 60 m rap and it cant reach the anchor properly, how in the hell are you going to pull the rope after ... even a lower stretch maxim rope will pop up a few feet above you once the climber is off (60m X 5% static stretch / 2 for dual strands = 4-5ft) ... you simply wont reach the rope to pull it without climbing back up im going to say this again ... a nylon sling with a knot will hold a fall off the anchor on soft squishy masses and stretchy harneses just as well as these PASes a PAS or sterling chain reactor is NO SAFER than a simple nylon sling in the case of a fall ive taken that fall ... you know the one where you clip in short at the crux to rest the rope after a whip, and VERY STUPIDELY forget to unclip .... make the crux move and then realize that youre stuck and cant downclimb ... and WHIP on yr tether at least a factor 1.5 fall, perhaps not quite a factor 2 ... the result is a very sore back for a week or two and whiplash ... the nylon sling wasnt even damaged at all ... and i was exceptionally pleased that my DMM offset held, BOMBAH there alot of MISLEADING info out there about tethers ... heres the crux of the issue ... from the Rocky Mountain Rescue Group in their 2009 testing using dummies rather than steel weights More significantly, for dropping onto highly static systems such as steel cable (Figures 3 and 5), or for dropping onto nonlinear systems such as Dynex (Spectra) daisy chains (Figure 8) or Purcell prussiks (Figure 10), the use of a steel load can lead to significantly unrealistic results (much higher peak loads, significantly more bartacks broken, very different dynamics, etc.). In these tests, the use of steel loads may produce grossly misleading results rather than just conservative (higher force) results. Although it adds significant cost, realistic force data combined with adequate analysis (material strengths, etc.) will lead to better system designs and operating procedures. caves.org/section/vertical/… its hilarious that folks are going around thinking their sterling chain reactors are safer ... if you want safe use a tether made out of a dynamic rope the realistic issue isnt the sling breaking if its nylon ... its you getting injuries because the impact forces will be quite high these PAS style non dynamic tethers are trading money for convenience ... NOT "safety" ;) the purcell slips on a high factor fall ... even when almost fully extended there will be some slip ... thats one of the benefits of the purcell and one of the downsides, as it can slip a bit even when just leaning back for a purcell or any other friction knot ... i would use the most supple rated cord i could find .... stiff cords are a biatch, and dont hold knots as well IME mammut cord is stiff, sterling is supple, maxim goes either way ;)

<8 DMM offsets. Totally agree about the rest. I think that the reason why PASes are marketed as "safe" is because of the trend of people using daisy chains as tethers, clipping a single loop to shorten it, and falling to their deaths because the daisy unravels. So, compared to that, a PAS is definitely safer, as each loop is load bearing and therefore safe to use for that purpose.

Ted Pinson wrote: <8 DMM offsets. Totally agree about the rest. I think that the reason why PASes are marketed as "safe" is because of the trend of people using daisy chains as tethers, clipping a single loop to shorten it, and falling to their deaths because the daisy unravels. So, compared to that, a PAS is definitely safer, as each loop is load bearing and therefore safe to use for that purpose.

clove the end biner and it becomes a total non issue

;)

Ted Pinson wrote: <8 DMM offsets. Totally agree about the rest. I think that the reason why PASes are marketed as "safe" is because of the trend of people using daisy chains as tethers, clipping a single loop to shorten it, and falling to their deaths because the daisy unravels. So, compared to that, a PAS is definitely safer, as each loop is load bearing and therefore safe to use for that purpose.

Has this actually ever happened to someone?

Lightflight wrote: My initial thought was that I would just pick one up for $20-30 and be done with it. Then I got thinking that is a lot of money for something I'm only going to use for single pitch cleaning up...

I was in the same boat as you when I started. I bought the damn thing though because why not (Metolius PAS)? You know where that thing is now? It stays hanging in my gear closet to help keep my rack organized. I'm not against anyone using a premade manufacturer's PAS... it is just not what I like anymore. Everyone has their preference.

Lightflight wrote: 3. Could i make one out of webbing that would be strong enough and sufficient. let me know what you think. If you have pics of your other solutions rather than a PAS i would like that.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/questions-abouy-using-dyneema-as-a-pas/111463406__3

You can read the entire thread, but check out page three. There are illustrations you asked for that may help. Credit: bearbreeder, for this helped me see how I could use my sling more efficiently, even better than a PAS. It is a multipurpose tool. It is light, non bulky, easy to make, strong enough for the job, and can be used for other situations.

Just make sure you can get the job done with more than just that one designated piece of gear. If you forget your PAS... know how to go about the job with just quickdraws, the rope, a sling, or your ponytail. Whatever you have available. It sucks to be stuck because you limit yourself to just only one possible way - yeah, that was my first outing before finding someone to show me better.

"First of all, don't ever trust your life to one connection"

Seems like in climbing that seems to happen a lot. Like the rope.

Yes, you have 1 rope...but it runs through two hard points on your harness, clips to multiple quickdraws connected to different bolts, and finally connects to the anchors through two carabiners, the anchor being built from a minimum of 2 solid pieces, preferably more if they're removable pieces. Should we abandon all of these practices, just because we happen to use one climbing rope? :/

Redundancy is one of the things that keeps us alive. If given the choice, any sane climber would choose a redundant connection over a single one, even if it's as simple as a QuickDraw. Bolts can and do fail, and if that happens when you're on direct to that one bolt, you're dead.

For cleaning an anchor, I have 1 dedicated tether (lots of options, most will work just fine and it's really personal preference) and clip it to one of the anchor points. Then i take the anchor that I'm cleaning, unclip the piece I'm already tethered to and clip that to my belay loop.

Now I have a solid, redundant connection and all I have to bring is a the tether that stays on my harness and a large portion of climbers will already have this tether because it stays on the harness. I would highly recommend, until you get more experience, just keeping a tether on your harness. It is very useful in many different situations

Jake Jones wrote: Whoops. I thought you were talking about the fall @ 2:40. Should have kept watching. Doh!

I did the exact same thing Jake! he should have said to watch the fall @ 2:47.

Cleaning a sport anchor I just clip the draws that make up the anchor to my belay loop. If one bolt is higher/ farther apart well I just cleaned the route, have draws on my harness and throw together a double sport draw for the farther away bolt and voile no need to carry around extra crap

Another good instructional video dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/l…

I use a chain reactor because it's convenient and I'm willing to spend a few bucks on that. The knotted sling approach seems like a good alternative though.

eli poss wrote:For cleaning an anchor, I have 1 dedicated tether (lots of options, most will work just fine and it's really personal preference) and clip it to one of the anchor points. Then i take the anchor that I'm cleaning, unclip the piece I'm already tethered to and clip that to my belay loop.

I am confused. How do you clip an anchor to your harness? You mean, you tether in to one bolt, use a draw on the other bolt, and clip the draw to your harness, thus resulting in a draw on one bolt and your tether on the other?

Personally, I kind of go back and fourth between using two PASes and one for a tether. I do a lot of route maintenance and having a second is useful for bolting, not to mention the whole redundancy thing is a big plus. What I dont like about it is the fact that when I have so much crap running through my tie-in points (two PASes, plus two strands of rope as I tie in w/ the double bowline), it becomes much easier to miss something and make a mistake, which always bothered me a bit. Accordingly, more recently I have decided to just use one when sport climbing. I figured the increase in risk of not having redundant tethers is lower than the increased risk of making a mistake tying in because I have so much cluster around my tie-in points. For multipitch, I use the rope to tie in with.

I use a PAS, but not often as a tether.

I use it to connect belay bolts to give a multi-point powerpoint. So it replaces a cordelette.

There are several advantages:

Many clip-in points for people, rucksacks, water bottles, lunch and cameras.

Easy to read. If three or four people are clipped to the same powerpoint, plus a reverso, it can be a little confusing as to who's locker is who's, even if you use the shelf. This is particularly true with beginners.

No knot to untie. Which can be difficult if it has been weighted by hauling etc.

Gives a great set up when big walling, when the cluster is so much greater.

It is a very useful bit of kit, but rather specialist I grant you.

bearbreeder wrote:a nylon sling with a knot will hold a fall off the anchor on soft squishy masses and stretchy harneses just as well as these PASes a PAS or sterling chain reactor is NO SAFER than a simple nylon sling in the case of a fall ive taken that fall ... you know the one where you clip in short at the crux to rest the rope after a whip, and VERY STUPIDELY forget to unclip .... make the crux move and then realize that youre stuck and cant downclimb ... and WHIP on yr tether at least a factor 1.5 fall, perhaps not quite a factor 2 ... the result is a very sore back for a week or two and whiplash ... the nylon sling wasnt even damaged at all ... and i was exceptionally pleased that my DMM offset held, BOMBAH there alot of MISLEADING info out there about tethers ...

Haha! Ouch... Thanks for taking one for the team in the name of science!

bearbreeder wrote:the use of a steel load can lead to significantly unrealistic results (much higher peak loads, significantly more bartacks broken, very different dynamics, etc.). In these tests, the use of steel loads may produce grossly misleading results rather than just conservative (higher force) results.

Well clarified.

Overall I think they've been good education to a number of climbers who are unaware of the issue of falls on tethers. But like you say they are misleading. Human bodies are a squishy, floppy bag that is mostly water we aren't steel.

bearbreeder wrote:the realistic issue isnt the sling breaking if its nylon ... its you getting injuries because the impact forces will be quite high

Pretty much.

20 kN wrote: I am confused. How do you clip an anchor to your harness? You mean, you tether in to one bolt, use a draw on the other bolt, and clip the draw to your harness, thus resulting in a draw on one bolt and your tether on the other?

When I know the anchor is two bolts (Cragging) I use a quad instead of draws. Imagine this:

Tether to left bolt with runner. Unclip quad from left bolt and clip to belay loop. Now the quad is clipped end to end form the right bolt to the belay loop.
Sorry for the confusion

Having a daisy chain is very convenient. It can be used for climbing, or hanging hammocks. The multiple links in the daisy chain allow for adjusting length on the fly. You can use your dynamic rope to tie yourself to stuff, as well. You can rack enough quickdraws to complete the procedure/purpose for lowering very slowly to the ground. That's what's great about this lifestyle--creativity, artistic options of executing maneuvers through features on this planet, improvising.

-----------------------------Don't do this-----------------------------------

Or, if you wanna put your frail body on the edge of death, hang onto the hardware with your hand while you create the link to your belayer, or create enough length in the rope to lower yourself to the ground on rappel.