PAS pissing match

PAS = POS

Greatest marketing campaign ever. Talk about a solution in search of a problem...

It's a complete 1 trick pony. You carry so much other gear that could serve that purpose - why waste your money? Unless you are one of those people that believes in american consumerism - they're selling it so I must buy it so I can keep up with all the other idiots.

ViperScale wrote: Technically weaker due to the knots (well maybe the same as a PAS version but weaker than sterling) but you should not plan on taking a factor 2 fall on one.

the knots absorb some impact force ... and nylon stretches a bit unlike the metolius PAS

"strength" isnt everything, BD pull tested used ropes to failure at ~6-12 KN ... yet ropes are the "strongest" part of yr system

if one wants to argue about falling on a tether then use a dynamic rope such as a beal dynaconnect or a homemade one ... end of story

theres what happens on da intrawebs ... and then theres brainfarts in the real world

;)

bearbreeder wrote: the knots absorb some impact force ... and nylon stretches a bit unlike the metolius PAS "strength" isnt everything, BD pull tested used ropes to failure at ~6-12 KN ... yet ropes are the "strongest" part of yr system if one wants to argue about falling on a tether then use a dynamic rope such as a beal dynaconnect or a homemade one ... end of story theres what happens on da intrawebs ... and then theres brainfarts in the real world ;)

I never said I would use a PAS. I like sterling version because it is made of webbing and can hold a factor 2 fall. Still a single sling will hold more fall before breaking without a knot, the knot will weaken it not strengthen.

And like I said if you are taking that big a fall on one of these things you are probably using it for something it shouldn't be used for! It doesn't matter if you make your own or buy one (i would recommend not getting PAS due to being weak but if you want a small profile one go for it).

ViperScale wrote: I never said I would use a PAS. I like sterling version because it is made of webbing and can hold a factor 2 fall. Still a single sling will hold more fall before breaking without a knot, the knot will weaken it not strengthen. And like I said if you are taking that big a fall on one of these things you are probably using it for something it shouldn't be used for! It doesn't matter if you make your own or buy one (i would recommend not getting PAS due to being weak but if you want a small profile one go for it).

yr fixated on the "strength" of the sling ignoring other factors ... the problem with soft squishy masses and stretchy harnesses isnt a NYLON sling breaking, even with knots ... its with the felt impact force, theres a reason why work safety tethers have a dynamic component built in

a nylon sling is functionally no worse than a PAS or a chain reactor ... first of all dont fall above the anchors, and should you be stupid enough to do so the nylon will stretch somewhat and the knots reduce the impact force slightly ...

have you taken a > factor 1 fall on yr sterling yet?

from personal experience a higher factor fall in ANY nylon sling or other such is not something pleasant ... you feel like you were in a car accident

to if one is to go and brag about their sterling chain reactor being "safer" ... thats really funny as if you want "safety" just use a dynamic rope tether

;)

Lightflight wrote:If the anchor was built like the one I mocked up in the picture, couldnt I just clip into the anchor then proceed with cleaning procedure?

Somebody have a vid or diagram to answer this? Cleaning to rappelling is not as easy to find as clean, swap over to lower. No matter where you fall in the "do this" "do that" camp, its still something we all need to know, and we have a responsibility to help people get this right. Just my opinion.

The nice thing about using two shoulder-length slings is that you can also use them as God intended to improve the rope path when necessary. Use the equipment you have, use a PAS (equalized properly) or whatever--just make it SERENE, and you're golden. The real danger comes from your transition back onto the rope, and no gear is magically going to save you from failing to check your system properly then. Check, double check, trace the rope path with your finger, then check again.

If you're pinching pennies, then, yeah, I'd buy a whole lot of other stuff before buying a PAS. A double length nylon sling will do everything a PAS will and so much more.

Lightflight, you can get by with a nylon sling with a knot partway down, or a single purcell prusik, or just some extra draws (some extendable (alpine) draws would work better for this).
The key thing is to make sure you're clipped into both bolts and in a low-fall-factor situation if one fails

For cragging I usually don't bring an attachment and just use draws at the anchor

1. You wouldn't clip in using the rope for single pitch, or even while you're rappelling multipitch

2. Purcells work OK, you only need one. The Purcell has two loops and you can usually clip one loop to each bolt.

3. You can get by with a single Purcell, a single nylon sling with a knot in it, or just a few extra draws. Sometimes you'll want to have a draw handy to get yourself sort of equalized on the bolts.

If you already have an equalized master point or two bolts equalized with a chain, you can just go into that with a single attachment and a locking biner.

If you want to go really cheap make a sling out of nylon webbing using a water knot

bearbreeder wrote: yr fixated on the "strength" of the sling ignoring other factors ... the problem with soft squishy masses and stretchy harnesses isnt a NYLON sling breaking, even with knots ... its with the felt impact force, theres a reason why work safety tethers have a dynamic component built in a nylon sling is functionally no worse than a PAS or a chain reactor ... first of all dont fall above the anchors, and should you be stupid enough to do so the nylon will stretch somewhat and the knots reduce the impact force slightly ... have you taken a > factor 1 fall on yr sterling yet? from personal experience a higher factor fall in ANY nylon sling or other such is not something pleasant ... you feel like you were in a car accident to if one is to go and brag about their sterling chain reactor being "safer" ... thats really funny as if you want "safety" just use a dynamic rope tether ;)

Not about if it will ever happen. Why do you build anchors with more than 1 piece of gear? If someone gave you 2 pieces of gear and said this one has a 50% chance to hold a fall and this one has a 10% chance to hold a fall... which piece of gear would you use?

Your personal anchor breaking = 100% death. Your personal anchor holding a factor 2 fall = alot of pain maybe some hospital time. Your choice do what you want, but I never planned in getting in a car wreck either. Heck half the crap I do while climbing is useless and has a less than 0.0001% chance of being needed but I still do it for a backup.

The only place I know of I could take a factor 2 fall off of my personal anchor is a rappel that takes 2 60m ropes and you are still clipping into the next anchor below your knees. This means you are going off rappel at close to a factor 2 fall above the anchor. Given it is pretty easy ground but it isn't exactly a ledge and a slip would be close enough to a factor 2 fall I would want to make sure my gear could hold it.

ViperScale wrote: The only place I know of I could take a factor 2 fall off of my personal anchor is a rappel that takes 2 60m ropes and you are still clipping into the next anchor below your knees.

I've seen more than one partner start climbing the next pitch of a multi-pitch from a semi-hanging belay, and forget to unclip their tether first, effectively getting "short roped" by the PAS/Daisy/sling and almost factor-2-ing onto it when the "short roping" stopped them cold.

So...the OP was asking about cleaning single pitch anchors...lol.

That's an interesting point, nevertheless. I'd be surprised if they managed to get far enough for a FF2, though...it seems like they would feel a tug as soon as they started moving. Either way, this is exactly why you want to use a clove hitch in the climbing rope to go on direct to a multi-pitch anchor, NOT a PAS.

ViperScale wrote: The only place I know of I could take a factor 2 fall off of my personal anchor is a rappel that takes 2 60m ropes and you are still clipping into the next anchor below your knees.

Aside from the obvious dumb stuff like the second starting to climb before unclipping, there is one other scenario. It's a scenario that has always stuck in the back of my mind, although in 14 years of climbing it has yet to happen. Basically, regardless of what method you use to attach to the belay station, there is always a possibility that the leader could fall, you could get pulled up to the limit of your tether, and then the piece the leader fell on could pull. If that happened, both of you would go into a free fall and the belayer would FF2 into the belay.

Yeah, you'd probably both be fucked, regardless of how you're connected to the anchor, as it would probably fail.

Ted Pinson wrote:Yeah, you'd probably both be fucked, regardless of how you're connected to the anchor, as it would probably fail.

Not if you were tied in with the rope. This is not that rare of a scenario, gear rips all the time, including on multipitch. The main reason why it is not as common as it could be is because there is typically more drag on the belayer's side of the rope, so the fall might not be enough to pull the belayer all the way up and off the belay. However, I have caught some whippers that pulled me up hard and I came to an abrupt stop once the tether caught, so it is a plausible scenario.

Ive been using the Purcell Prusik for years now (on my 3rd) primarily on multipitch trad. I like it because of variety of lengths I can make it which can make for a better stance on timely belays. I have a long wingspan so i can get more extension than the PAS set ups.....but thats not why im posting.

On my most recent Purcell Prusik ive used a stiffer 7mm cord than my previous rigs. This time Ive noticed more twisting on the biner end. I wrap it around my waist and clip it around itself when not in use.

Does anyone else have a twisting issue? its not terribly inconvenient just kind of annoying when I shorten it from full extension.

also do you think think the fall factor would be slightly reduced in a purcell prusik system if it slipped (just slightly) initially before engaging? this would only so if it is not fully extended.
Ive brought this up with others and we've concluded it as being slightly or potentially dynamic for it would be scenario dependent...probably be difficult to reproduce same results every time if tested...

what are y'alls thoughts?

Gracias

ViperScale wrote: Not about if it will ever happen. Why do you build anchors with more than 1 piece of gear? If someone gave you 2 pieces of gear and said this one has a 50% chance to hold a fall and this one has a 10% chance to hold a fall... which piece of gear would you use? Your personal anchor breaking = 100% death. Your personal anchor holding a factor 2 fall = alot of pain maybe some hospital time. Your choice do what you want, but I never planned in getting in a car wreck either. Heck half the crap I do while climbing is useless and has a less than 0.0001% chance of being needed but I still do it for a backup. The only place I know of I could take a factor 2 fall off of my personal anchor is a rappel that takes 2 60m ropes and you are still clipping into the next anchor below your knees. This means you are going off rappel at close to a factor 2 fall above the anchor. Given it is pretty easy ground but it isn't exactly a ledge and a slip would be close enough to a factor 2 fall I would want to make sure my gear could hold it.

first of all if youre clipping the way you describe thats absolutely stupid ... simply tie knots at the end attach the extra slings there to form a ladder and downclip yourself with your PAS and draws to BOTH slings while using the slings as a ladder ... if you do slip theres 60 m of dynamic rope to stretch

not to mention that if youre at the limit of 2 60 m rap and it cant reach the anchor properly, how in the hell are you going to pull the rope after ... even a lower stretch maxim rope will pop up a few feet above you once the climber is off (60m X 5% static stretch / 2 for dual strands = 4-5ft) ... you simply wont reach the rope to pull it without climbing back up

im going to say this again ...

a nylon sling with a knot will hold a fall off the anchor on soft squishy masses and stretchy harneses just as well as these PASes

a PAS or sterling chain reactor is NO SAFER than a simple nylon sling in the case of a fall

ive taken that fall ...

you know the one where you clip in short at the crux to rest the rope after a whip, and VERY STUPIDELY forget to unclip .... make the crux move and then realize that youre stuck and cant downclimb ... and WHIP on yr tether

at least a factor 1.5 fall, perhaps not quite a factor 2 ...

the result is a very sore back for a week or two and whiplash ...

the nylon sling wasnt even damaged at all ... and i was exceptionally pleased that my DMM offset held, BOMBAH

there alot of MISLEADING info out there about tethers ...

heres the crux of the issue ... from the Rocky Mountain Rescue Group in their 2009 testing using dummies rather than steel weights

More significantly, for dropping onto highly static systems such as steel cable (Figures
3 and 5), or for dropping onto nonlinear systems such as Dynex (Spectra) daisy chains
(Figure 8) or Purcell prussiks (Figure 10), the use of a steel load can lead to significantly
unrealistic results (much higher peak loads, significantly more bartacks broken, very
different dynamics, etc.). In these tests, the use of steel loads may produce grossly
misleading results rather than just conservative (higher force) results. Although it adds
significant cost, realistic force data combined with adequate analysis (material strengths,
etc.) will lead to better system designs and operating procedures.

caves.org/section/vertical/…

its hilarious that folks are going around thinking their sterling chain reactors are safer ... if you want safe use a tether made out of a dynamic rope

the realistic issue isnt the sling breaking if its nylon ... its you getting injuries because the impact forces will be quite high

these PAS style non dynamic tethers are trading money for convenience ... NOT "safety"

;)

emorekul wrote:Ive been using the Purcell Prusik for years now (on my 3rd) primarily on multipitch trad. I like it because of variety of lengths I can make it which can make for a better stance on timely belays. I have a long wingspan so i can get more extension than the PAS set ups.....but thats not why im posting. On my most recent Purcell Prusik ive used a stiffer 7mm cord than my previous rigs. This time Ive noticed more twisting on the biner end. I wrap it around my waist and clip it around itself when not in use. Does anyone else have a twisting issue? its not terribly inconvenient just kind of annoying when I shorten it from full extension. also do you think think the fall factor would be slightly reduced in a purcell prusik system if it slipped (just slightly) initially before engaging? this would only so if it is not fully extended. Ive brought this up with others and we've concluded it as being slightly or potentially dynamic for it would be scenario dependent...probably be difficult to reproduce same results every time if tested... what are y'alls thoughts? Gracias

the purcell slips on a high factor fall ... even when almost fully extended there will be some slip ... thats one of the benefits of the purcell

and one of the downsides, as it can slip a bit even when just leaning back

for a purcell or any other friction knot ... i would use the most supple rated cord i could find ....

stiff cords are a biatch, and dont hold knots as well

IME mammut cord is stiff, sterling is supple, maxim goes either way

;)

Useful information if you would like it:

youtube.com/watch?v=kgawqTT…

youtube.com/watch?v=7jmMpzi…

amga.com/category/video/

Best of luck. If this really doesn't make sense, would agree with other folks, and find a mentor.

Regarding PAS - all of this is purely personal preference. I agree the PAS seems to have garnished much unwarranted acclaim/use, and if you are going to get one, you certainly don't need two unless you buy your underwear at KMart.

By the way, just looked up Purcell Prussik, and have to ask - why in the world would anyone bother with this? Seems unnecessarily complicated for the task at hand.

I am sure I am gonna get ripped for it but I use 1 Daisy chain for adjust-ability (insert PAS if your scared)with a wire gate biner and one nylon sling with a mini locker. Works well for me.

This is what im talking about:

youtu.be/O839UtW2g0g

just subbing out the PAS with something else.

I don't want to be lowered i want to rap.

I think I have enough info now that has confirmed my thoughts.

I really do appreciate all of the feedback and discussion.

climbing friend,

once your guns are adequately sculpted for most difficult, enjoyable, route, you will not be possible clean on rappel and perhaps must be lowered, yes?

Lightflight wrote:This is what im talking about: youtu.be/O839UtW2g0g just subbing out the PAS with something else. I don't want to be lowered i want to rap. I think I have enough info now that has confirmed my thoughts. I really do appreciate all of the feedback and discussion.

This looks pretty good. I like to load the rope into my ATC on my harness, then move the loaded rig to the front. Depends on how much rope is out, but I assume I'm capable of dropping the thing sooner or later.

Personally, I like an extended rappel, and prefer a prussik backup. That's a whole other long argument. If you do choose a backup or extension, do all that before you unclip.

As a noob, to make it simpler, I just try to always DO (the next step) before UNDO (what is currently keeping me alive). Get your tether set up, double checked, tested, BEFORE going off belay, rappelling rigged BEFORE unclipping, rappell totally set BEFORE undoing the tether, and so forth.

The 2 purcells I have are tied from cord, sized for me, and live on my harness for ascending, along with a prussik (which doubles as rappelling backup). I use them for anything where the mobility of a friction hitch combined with adjustable length is useful. As Bear said above, though, stiff cord is a pain.

Best, H. :-)