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Outdoor gear labs new belay device review

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

20 kN is arguing against the full and ready availability of critical information on the grounds that some people won't pay attention to it.

As for the OGL review, I think it is pretty good for the genre. No, they can't compete with the DAV with its massive budget and extensive facilities for testing, (they do reference DAV tests at least twice), but they've done a far better job then the magazine and internet reviews that are based on very limited experience in a very narrow range of conditions (from a genuine testing perspective), possibly with a device donated by an advertiser.

One of the problems with reviews is that a device may work well for a single individual doing certain types of climbs with a particular rope and carabiner combination, while behaving poorly in other circumstances. The rave reviews may not carry over...

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
rgold wrote:20 kN is arguing against the full and ready availability of critical information on the grounds that some people won't pay attention to it. .
I simply annotated that we are preaching to the choir here and if someone really wants to make a difference with regard to the topic at hand, it's best done in person at the crag. Post up anything you want, just make sure you mention it at the crag too--dont expect everyone to read the forums. That's my point.
tomW · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 10
Jim Titt wrote: 7kN is the requirement for the UIAA strength test for ALL belay devices with the rope fixed. Correctly used as a guide plate it is inconceivably you could ever achieve that level of force and with most ropes the device will release them anyway long before that, in particular the MegaJul.
Hi Jim,

Thanks for adding the UIAA requirement value. Do you have any data at which guide mode devices release rope? Something like force vs rope slippage?

Thanks!
Tom
nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
20 kN wrote: I simply annotated that were preaching to the choir here and if someone really wants to make a difference with regard to the topic at hand, it's best done in person at the crag. Post up anything you want, just make sure you mention it at the crag too--dont expect everyone to read the forums. That's my point.
I think point is that first of all this information should be in the manufacturer's own documentation. This, in theory, is read by everyone who buys the device.

Next in line it would be good for those who review gear to test thoroughly enough to detect and report on potential problems, since they do have significant reach to people buying and using these things. It's not just the jaded forum dwellers that check the reviews on a place like outdoorgearreview.

Third in line, I don't think that posting here is preaching to the choir. A popular thread in the gear discussion forum will get 5,000+ views.

The least efficient method for getting out important safety information would be walking around the base of the crag and looking for people who just happen to be using, say, a cinch so that you can tell them how it works.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Nathanael wrote: I think point is that first of all this information should be in the manufacturer's own documentation. This, in theory, is read by everyone who buys the device. Next in line it would be good for those who review gear to test thoroughly enough to detect and report on potential problems, since they do have significant reach to people buying and using these things. It's not just the jaded forum dwellers that check the reviews on a place like outdoorgearreview. Third in line, I don't think that posting here is preaching to the choir. A popular thread in the gear discussion forum will get 5,000+ views. The least efficient method for getting out important safety information would be walking around the base of the crag and looking for people who just happen to be using, say, a cinch so that you can tell them how it works.
Someone gets marketing !!!

Or in tech speak .... One to many relationships vs one to one

How many climbers who use the alpine smart does one meet in a day at the crag .... How about a year

Now how many alpine smart users read the forums ... One is greater than the other

Now how many read the reviews before and after buying ... Or the instructions or manufacturers warning

Theres a reason why the DAV when they published the cinch issues and the new recommended belay method, they didnt try to talk to users "one at a time at the gym"

DAV Panorama 3/2010 Cinch 1

DAV Panorama 3/2010 Cinch 2

This was in 2010, eventually around 2012 trango changed their belay recommendation to the DAVs

Quite a few of these safety changes in belay devices are the results of folks on forums or independent bodies investigating and publicising these issues ... And not by "talking one bu one at te crag"

Cinch wear, cinch belay, autoblock lowering backups, new grigri belay methods, etc ....

I can post up the links and history for everyone if MPer want ...

For manufactured theres no excuse to not post up a warning about these issues once they have been IDed and can be reproduced

Folks lives can depend on it ....

The problem is that in this competitive sales environment, marketing teams and their funny speak take over .... No one wants to admit their device isnt perfect

Petzl to their credit takes the approach that an informed belayer of the devices issues is better off .... Notice their extensive documentation and videos

Some other companies not so much ...

;)
Chris Graham · · Bartlett, NH · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 545
bearbreeder wrote: As to cost IME the smart is the MORE expensive device .... I go through a belay biner every 6-12 months .... Or after 100-200+ days out doors It wears out biners like crazy ;)
I agree with you there! It does wear groves on biners like no other device i have ever used. I usually get two seasons out of my Petzl Williams...sometimes three if I rotate them effectively. ;)
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

bear...how about the advice to never, ever take your brake hand off the rope ? seems real ,fucking, simple to me.

Isn't this the real issue here ?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Not taking the brake hand off the rope would fix many things but not all of them. Over-cranking the Grigri release lever will drop someone being lowered even with the brake hand on the rope much of the time, and there are analogous things that can go wrong with other assisted braking devices.

The Grigri can also fail to lock in a leader fall if the belayer clutches the rope really hard with the non-brake hand---this is one of the possible mechanisms for Jim Ewing's accident. These are just examples using the Grigri; all of the assisted braking devices have failure modes that are not well-known, may be subtle and unintuitive, and which are sometimes only discovered after the device has been out in the field and used for a while.

One of the things I think OGL got right is that beginners should start with an ATC-XP and get some real training in its use. Generally speaking, assisted braking devices ought to be for experts.

As if.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
rgold wrote:Not taking the brake hand off the rope would fix many things but not all of them...The Grigri can also fail to lock in a leader fall if the belayer clutches the rope really hard with the non-brake hand.
Not if the brake hand clutches the rope (close to) equally hard, or at least I don't think it has been demonstrated otherwise. IMO, the problem isn't necessarily taking the brake hand off the rope, but that in order to smoothly operate a lot of these brake assisted devices, the belayer can't keep a close grip on the brake end of rope at all time.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

reboot, I'm just reporting what Petzl says in one of their cautionary videos. They don't get into the load distribution between the two hands, nor would they want to. If magnitude of differential grasping is what is critical, then you have an even more subtle failure mode.

But my point is that subtle unintuitive failure modes exist, and that these gadgets may not be appropriate for folks who don't have a thorough understanding of what they are working with. Right now, the manufacturers have made the acquisition of that basic working knowledge a substantial project, part of which might even involve learning not to do what is in some of the manufacturer's own demonstration videos, and really, that's just wrong.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
john strand wrote:bear...how about the advice to never, ever take your brake hand off the rope ? seems real ,fucking, simple to me. Isn't this the real issue here ?
as mentioned some of these devices require you to partially take the hand off the brake when feeding

with the grigri, petzl says ONLY to do this when fast feeding ... at all other times it should be held and fed just like a reverso ... but lets be blunt, the majority of folks you see around ALWAYS stay in the fast feed method

with other devices, well the manufacturers are a bit lax ... with the smart the thumb should slide down off the handle and the hand have a SOLID grasp on the rope on a fall IMO

heres a screenshot of a "catch" from an official mammut instruction video ... notice the issue?

mammut official

the DAV warns specifically against this "failure" mode for the mega jul, jul2 and smart ...

dav panorama

when even the "official" vids show a poor catch, you know you have an issue

and just in case folks think this will never happen to em, twice my partner fell further than he should have because of this "partial brake hand" issue ... fortunatey there were no consequences ... and of course i was MPing while belaying =P

without these specific warnings and poor instructions ... folks may well learn the hard way

;)
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
rgold wrote:reboot, I'm just reporting what Petzl says in one of their cautionary videos. They don't get into the load distribution between the two hands, nor would they want to. If magnitude of differential grasping is what is critical, then you have an even more subtle failure mode.
I'm not disputing that it's a bad practice, and I understand why it's in the video. I don't think magnitude of differential grasping determines whether the grigri will lock, only a (pretty reasonable) threshold amount of brake side force needed to engage the cam. Still, a Grigri will lock up under most situations w/o any brake side force, and grabbing the rope side compromises that, so it should be discouraged.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

I don't think the megajul belays that badly in plaquette mode. I use a locker with wide round bar stock ( older attaché ) and it works. My biggest complaint is how the Megajul reverses the side of the device the biner goes on. I cant believe they didn't mention that.

As for the megajul for rappel in auto block mode, try it once, there won't likely be a second time.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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