History of ethics of lowering and TRing through fixed gear/quickdraws

Pnelson wrote:I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even rapping wears the anchors down. Just a bit, but over time it adds up. Really the ONLY responsible thing to do is, after you have finished toproping through your own draws, the last member of the group needs to unclip the draws, lean back, and plummet to his death. He must NOT try to topout and walk down, because this will damage the clifftop vegetation. Y'all are welcome.

What if your body breaks a tree branch or squishes a Preebles Jumping Mouse when you impact?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: What if your body breaks a tree branch or squishes a Preebles Jumping Mouse when you impact?

I think the decomposed flesh will more than make up for it.

reboot wrote: I think the decomposed flesh will more than make up for it.

Only if the deceased was a raw vegan.

If you really want to make the statement that, "I don't know what the fuck I am doing at a sport area"- simply call off belay when you reach the top of the route. I will be laughing out loud and clearing out the landing.

You trads are funny. I can't imagine weighing in on a discussion of multi pitch trad climbing with what are obviously sport ethics, but if I did, it would be pretty clear I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about, kinda like every person defending rapping at a sport crag.

csproul wrote: If there is a miscommunication about the climber's intentions and they rappel, there is no consequence... If there is a miscommunication and the climber intends on lowering, there is more likely to be an accident.

This is true. There is a huge asymmetry in the consequences of miscommunication, as you describe. This asymmetry provides a very strong argument that it is safer to make a habit of rapping most of the time. The reasoning is as follows:

Most climbers will have a default method they go to most of the time, but it is inevitable that you will occasionally need to do the other method. If you usually lower, you will sometimes have to rap due to sharp edges, stupid metolius rap hangers, etc. If you usually rap, you will sometimes have to lower due to steep overhangs, traverses, etc. It is easy to say “If everyone were to ____ all the time, that would fix everything”, but that is not realistic. You will have a standard protocol, but you need to have a system such that you can safely deviate from the standard on occasion.

On the 1 time out of 100 that you have to deviate from your usual practice, miscommunication might occur; this is when accidents happen. But the consequences of miscommunication are not the same. As you say, if you almost always lower, and on one pitch find that you need to rap, the consequences of miscommunication are basically zero. If your partner forgets your intention to rap, or you failed to inform them, they might get a little confused when you keep pulling up rope, but in the end nothing bad will happen. However, if you almost always rap, and on one pitch find that you need to lower, the consequences of miscommunication or forgetfulness are huge. They take you off belay, you lean back, you die.

So, it is safer to make lowering your standard protocol, so that your partners will expect you to lower, and will never take you off belay. Usually lowering but sometimes rapping is safe, and does not result in miscommunication deaths. Usually rapping and sometimes lowering is less safe; it sets up the potential for fatal miscommunications. Preventing miscommunication accidents is not about the 99% of the time you do the normal protocol; it is about setting up the system to avoid creating an accident during the 1% of the time you do something different.

And always tie a knot in the end of the rope, even when climbing at Wild Iris with a 70.

JCM wrote: This is true. There is a huge asymmetry in the consequences of miscommunication, as you describe. This asymmetry provides a very strong argument that it is safer to make a habit of rapping most of the time. The reasoning is as follows: Most climbers will have a default method they go to most of the time, but it is inevitable that you will occasionally need to do the other method. If you usually lower, you will sometimes have to rap due to sharp edges, stupid metolius rap hangers, etc. If you usually rap, you will sometimes have to lower due to steep overhangs, traverses, etc. It is easy to say “If everyone were to ____ all the time, that would fix everything”, but that is not realistic. You will have a standard protocol, but you need to have a system such that you can safely deviate from the standard on occasion. On the 1 time out of 100 that you have to deviate from your usual practice, miscommunication might occur; this is when accidents happen. But the consequences of miscommunication are not the same. As you say, if you almost always lower, and on one pitch find that you need to rap, the consequences of miscommunication are basically zero. If your partner forgets your intention to rap, or you failed to inform them, they might get a little confused when you keep pulling up rope, but in the end nothing bad will happen. However, if you almost always rap, and on one pitch find that you need to lower, the consequences of miscommunication or forgetfulness are huge. They take you off belay, you lean back, you die. So, it is safer to make lowering your standard protocol, so that your partners will expect you to lower, and will never take you off belay. Usually lowering but sometimes rapping is safe, and does not result in miscommunication deaths. Usually rapping and sometimes lowering is less safe; it sets up the potential for fatal miscommunications. Preventing miscommunication accidents is not about the 99% of the time you do the normal protocol; it is about setting up the system to avoid creating an accident during the 1% of the time you do something different. And always tie a knot in the end of the rope, even when climbing at Wild Iris with a 70.

Yes, which is why, as a belayer, I always default to assuming that I will lower the climber unless it is made absolutely clear to me that the climber will rap and that it is safe to take them off belay.

J Q wrote: You trads are funny.

Back in my day it was all just climbing. And we liked it that way. Now I have the diabeetus and hate everything. Goes to show. I like your posts, yungin, you're a real shithead. I like that. Durp.

George Perkins wrote:Mark E Dixon wrote: "IIRC, the Canal Zone accident you refer to occurred when the climber failed to thread the anchor properly before rappelling. The recent accident in New Mexico apparently had a similar cause. The accident several years ago at Cat Slab was another failure to thread event." (quotes not working for me) From all accounts, the climber in the recent New Mexico accident was planning to be lowered, not planning to rappel. The situation was more complicated than usual because the anchor was 170' up (they had 2 ropes).

I'm sure you are right George. But wasn't the final mechanism a threading issue? She threaded then tied into the wrong side? Regardless, just so sad. So sad.

@ CSproul- in the rare times when my climber is rapping, I cannot bring myself to take him/her off belay until I see the free end of the rope snaking down the cliff towards me. Pathetic in a way, but there are some sights I really don't need to see during this lifetime.

Tim Lutz wrote: This should be end of the discussion, but I am looking forward to 6 more pages of chuffers telling us about how ethical rappelling is.

Something tells me Timmy wants to break out his 8a.nu scorecard on us all. C'mon Timmy, whip it out bro.

Pnelson wrote:I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Even rapping wears the anchors down. Just a bit, but over time it adds up. Really the ONLY responsible thing to do is, after you have finished toproping through your own draws, the last member of the group needs to unclip the draws, lean back, and plummet to his death. He must NOT try to topout and walk down, because this will damage the clifftop vegetation. Y'all are welcome.

Really, besides downwhipping, this is the second best way to look good for the euros and spurtos.

J Q wrote:If you really want to make the statement that, "I don't know what the fuck I am doing at a sport area"- simply call off belay when you reach the top of the route. I will be laughing out loud and clearing out the landing. You trads are funny. I can't imagine weighing in on a discussion of multi pitch trad climbing with what are obviously sport ethics, but if I did, it would be pretty clear I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about, kinda like every person defending rapping at a sport crag.

Image is really, really important to you isnt it?

Nothing like a midwinter bitch-a-thon on the proj where the pinkpointers get all up in a huff! YOU WILL LOWER OR BE A N00BLET FOREVER AND YOU WONT LOOK COOL EITHER! LOWER GOD DAMNIT LOWER! THIS IS THE ONLY WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! DO YOU WANNA DIE OR WHAT??????? N0000000000000000000000000BS!!!!!!

""... The accident several years ago at Cat Slab was another failure to thread event." (quotes not working for me) From all accounts, the climber in the recent New Mexico accident was planning to be lowered, not planning to rappel. The situation was more complicated than usual because the anchor was 170' up (they had 2 ropes).

OK... this makes no sense at all...... how do you get lowered when you have to tie 2 ropes together. Unless you were on a big top rope when you climbed up.

just scratching my head in disbelief .....

reboot wrote: Exactly, you are smarter than all the people who've had this issue, some w/ very bad consequences. It's simply impossible for it to happen to you...

What issue are you referring to? Did you read my post? It appears not so.

J Q wrote:If you really want to make the statement that, "I don't know what the fuck I am doing at a sport area"- simply call off belay when you reach the top of the route. I will be laughing out loud and clearing out the landing. You trads are funny. I can't imagine weighing in on a discussion of multi pitch trad climbing with what are obviously sport ethics, but if I did, it would be pretty clear I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about, kinda like every person defending rapping at a sport crag.

The crag nazi has spoken.

Guy Keesee wrote:The situation was more complicated than usual because the anchor was 170' up (they had 2 ropes). OK... this makes no sense at all...... how do you get lowered when you have to tie 2 ropes together. Unless you were on a big top rope when you climbed up. just scratching my head in disbelief .....

If I understand correctly, the pitch was 170 feet long. They had two ropes tied together. She tied into the middle of the rope with a figure 8 or something similar with ?30 feet of rope trailing. This was done so that the belayer would not have to pass the knot while she was climbing. When she got to the anchor, whether she was planning to lower or rap, I don't recall, but regardless, she threaded the trail rope through the anchors and leaned back. The trail rope (unattached to anything else) then pulled through the anchors. Her belayer could do nothing.

Unfortunately, drop-in anchors (e.g. Mussy hooks) might not eliminate this kind of accident.

William Thiry wrote: What issue are you referring to? Did you read my post? It appears not so.

Reboot is referring to the issue of the climber being dropped because his/her belayer assumed he/she was going to rappel. He is correct that this issue has occurred to several experienced climbers, even if it hasn't occurred to you and you consider the concern silly.

Thanks. Mark. Unfortunately that wasn't the issue that I was referring to in my original statement at all, so Reboot's reply wasn't exactly relevant to what I said. I certainly did not refer to such miscommunication between belayer and climber as silly at all; quite the opposite. 'On Belay!'

What is perhaps most troubling in this entire thread.......
.....is the thought of it all being rehashed in a new thread some X months from now.

Dixion.... thanks for the explanation. It is impossible for me to understand.

If she was leading a 170 foot pitch and wished to get down you can't get lowered unless you pull the entire cord up to you, toss it back down (so its not in the gear) have one of your buddies tie the other cord on to it, then put the end that is tied to you through the hooks, rings whatever.... have the ground man put you on belay and "take" then you can lower down....

when I do this.... I climb at a place where all the pitches are 150 or so... I rap.

I have run across some new sport deal that my young friends have told me is called ...
"Lower, then Rap." The belayer can lower you about 40-50 feet to another set of anchors... one clips in, goes off belay, pulls cord to the middle mark and finishes off rappelling to the deck.

This whole thread is good for a chuckle, except that people getting killed is no joke, but the attitude of some people is funny as hell...

Lets get this one to 50 pages.

Guy,
There are a few climbs like that at the tunnels where we lower pull them rap.

I've always tried to rap than lower, I like to be the one in control and it saves the anchors in the long run. I really hate both though to be honest.

JCM wrote:They take you off belay, you lean back, you die.

This is what I don't understand. When I learned untie/retie to lower I was taught to communicate with my belayer to make sure they have me before unclipping my tether(s) to the anchor. In fact, I do this even when I don't untie/retie as it is part of the communication with my belayer when i reach the top of the pitch.

The communication should look something like this:

[Climber reaches anchor]
Climber: Take
Belayer: Got you
[Climber sits back on the rope]
Climber: Lower
Belayer: Lowering
[Climber gets lowered]

Yeah...truth be told, almost all of these accidents could have been prevented if people would simply weight their systems before transitioning. Whether I'm rapping or lowering, the first thing I do before unclipping my PASes (always 2) is to choke up on the rope until the tethers are loose and floppy. Not only does this make unclipping them easier, it also ensures that my rappel device/belay is holding me, NOT the PAS. And I always tie a knot at both ends of the ropes, even if I can see them hit the ground, because, as others have mentioned, consistency is the key to staying alive. So many people skip these steps for efficiency purposes, which IMO is a mistake.

Jake Jones wrote: Is it though? Who determines those ethics? Are you just talking about others who also possess the "always rappel because it saves the anchors" perspective- or people that actually put routes up and develop areas? I can think of more than one guidebook that says "lower off, we develop routes and have a management plan that facilitates this, and it's inherently safer than rappelling"- or something to that effect. I haven't read any (this is not to say that none exist) that say rappelling is preferable from fixed top anchors. This is not an argument for areas where there are no fixed anchors designed specifically to be lowered from- or those few mixed pro routes that remain at some areas where there are bolts for pro but no top anchors. Of course you have to rap in those cases. I'll state again the reason why lowering is the adopted ethic for sport climbing. Many sport routes, especially those in the upper grades that are severely overhanging are not conducive to cleaning while on rappel. The notion itself is ridiculous. People aren't going to adopt two different methods for different terrain when one method works for all terrain. This is why lowering IS THE ETHIC for sport climbing at any grade- on routes that are equipped to do so- which in this day and age is the overwhelming majority. Multiple developers have commented in this thread stating that they develop with hardware and install it specifically for this purpose. Anyone that's putting up sport routes will likely tell you the same thing, and anyone that's putting up bolted routes without anchors for lowering is an asshole. Especially if it's steep. Like you Ted, I learned from people that went on and on about the "proper" way to do this and do that, and if you don't know how to go in direct and set up a rappel, then you have no business out there and so on and so forth. The first 45 degree (bolt or gear protected, really) route you try and reach the anchors on, you'll realize how stupid this unyielding dogma is- especially on routes that facilitate it in areas with good management plans for hardware replacement. That being said, I still rap occasionally, but usually it's to clean finicky gear that I place that might get stuck by a follower that can't properly read how it went in, or if I'm at my home chosspile which has Metolius rap hangers and nothing else at the top. I agree with what others have said. The problem isn't necessarily that rappelling is any less safe than being lowered- most of the problem comes from miscommunication of "am I lowering or am I rappelling?" between climber and belayer. If there was one accepted practice for sport climbing- which is the predominant type of climbing in the US as well as most other places, this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue. If you're always lowering, and you're never coming off belay, then there's much less chance of miscommunication and much less chance of getting injured or killed.

I think the only real answer is that it depends on where you are. I posted a link earlier in the thread to the Muir Valley guidelines that clearly requested climbers rappel rather than lower, but then again they don't even allow dogs, lol. If you go on Redriverclimber, there are plenty of route developers complaining about people lowering. Again, I'm not saying that they're right, only that the ethic DOES exist and not all developers are as enlightened as the ones in this thread. ;)