Does the "magic x" make a daisy chain safe?

that guy named seb wrote: Only people i have seen use nylon are gym climbers who have been scared shitless by the DMM nylon vs dyneema tests.

So another guy from the UK? Sounds like you guys need some Nylon in your diet!

Plenty of good advantages, particularly for a tether. There is a reason why its still used regularly in plenty of climbing equipment and harnesses.

patto wrote: So another guy from the UK? Sounds like you guys need some Nylon in your diet! Plenty of good advantages, particularly for a tether. There is a reason why its still used regularly in plenty of climbing equipment and harnesses.

Apart from not being super static what else is there? They weaken with water (which we have plenty of), they are bulkier and get damaged by UV simply being outside is bad for nylon slings, I fail to see the advantages.

that guy named seb wrote: Apart from not being super static what else is there? They weaken with water (which we have plenty of), they are bulkier and get damaged by UV simply being outside is bad for nylon slings, I fail to see the advantages.

;)

bearbreeder wrote: ;)

\Can't understand german.

that guy named seb wrote: \Can't understand german.

Nor can I but they are some pretty easy charts to figure out. ;-)
Basically it disputes your claim about loss of strength over time (UV).

that guy named seb wrote:Apart from not being super static what else is there?

Not being super static is kinda important for your tether. Of course you should never fall on a tether but, why not cover you arse.

I listed what else is there earlier.
Durability: Time, UV and abrasion wear, nylon performs better
(well for abrasion I think it is worse but you have MORE of it

Knottability. Girth hitches or other knots, reduce the strength of thin slings significantly more than the thicker nylon slings.

that guy named seb wrote:They weaken with water (which we have plenty of).

Not permanently. Besides the biggest effect of water is on dynamic rope. If you are climbing in conditions where you are getting everything wet then you should be more concerned about dynamic loads on your rope.

So there are a whole host of advantages of nylon. Weight and bulk are the key disadvantages. That is why all extendable draws are spectra/dyneema. Also if weight an bulk are a problem why carry a PAS or daisy!?

patto wrote: Not being super static is kinda important for your tether. Of course you should never fall on a tether but, why not cover you arse. Also if weight an bulk are a problem why carry a PAS or daisy!?

I carry neither daisy or PAS, also it's pretty easy to not fall on your tether, like really really easy, just don't climb above your tether, its pretty easy.

sebbie wrote:..., also it's pretty easy to not fall on your tether, like really really easy, just don't climb above your tether, its pretty easy.

"It's really easy to not have accidents, just don't have accidents."

A tether, whether improvised or special-purpose, serves as a direct connection to the anchor, without the intermediary of the rope. The advantages of nylon for this particular application seem to me to be a no-brainer.

that guy named seb wrote: ...it's pretty easy to not fall on your tether, like really really easy, just don't climb above your tether, its pretty easy.

It seems to me that a cloud of double-think engulfs many discussions. You only use a tether because you consider the possibility of falling to be significant enough to require action. If you aren't going to fall, then of course you don't need a tether.

If you are using a tether, then you have admitted that there is a chance you might fall, so saying "don't fall" contradicts the assumptions underlying your own actions. You can't have it both ways, so given that the tether is there to catch a fall you've already admitted could happen, the tether ought to be up to the task.

As for not climbing up to or above the anchor when tethered to it, I've already indicated earlier in the thread a very natural situation that is not rare. I've also been in multiple situations in which you and arrive at a rap anchor unroped that you have to climb down to. It is natural to clip such anchors from above with a tether, immediately putting you in a FF2 position. Saying "don't do this" doesn't change the reality that there are occasions when we do this.

In any case, always having all the slack out of a tether is not going to happen (Purcell prussiks being the worst in this regard because of their limited adjustment range). People who only climb routes with bolted belays and rap anchors may not understand the variety of situations that occur when natural anchors are the norm. Having an anchor at or below waist level is not always avoidable, so the potential for FF1 falls is, if not frequent, certainly not unusual either.

If FF1 falls are not unusual ... Just use a dynamic tether

Thats all da PHAT bear growled folks

;)

rgold wrote:A tether, whether improvised or special-purpose, serves as a direct connection to the anchor, without the intermediary of the rope. The advantages of nylon for this particular application seem to me to be a no-brainer. It also seems to me that a cloud of double-think engulfs many discussions. You only use a tether because you consider the possibility of falling to be significant enough to require action. If you aren't going to fall, then of course you don't need a tether. If you are using a tether, then you have admitted that there is a chance you might fall, so saying "don't fall" contradicts the assumptions underlying your own actions. You can't have it both ways, so given that the tether is there to catch a fall you've already admitted could happen, the tether ought to be up to the task. As for not climbing up to or above the anchor when tethered to it, I've already indicated earlier in the thread a very natural situation that is not rare. I've also been in multiple situations in which you and arrive at a rap anchor unroped that you have to climb down to. It is natural to clip such anchors from above with a tether, immediately putting you in a FF2 position. Saying "don't do this" doesn't change the reality that there are occasions when we do this. In any case, always having all the slack out of a tether is not going to happen (Purcell prussiks being the worst in this regard because of their limited adjustment range). People who only climb routes with bolted belays and rap anchors may not understand the variety of situations that occur when natural anchors are the norm. Having an anchor at or below waist level is not always avoidable, so the potential for FF1 falls is, if not frequent, certainly not unusual either.

Your idea of don't fall and a tether confuses me, a tether should be weighted constantly or consider your self soloing, anyway IMO tethers should only be used for either sport climbing or rappelling, in these situations i struggle to see the need to climb above the anchor.

Doug Hemken wrote: "It's really easy to not have accidents, just don't have accidents."

If walking on a high building with a small fence, you may ask your self "my god this is so dangerous i could fall off at any moment" but to that line of thought i simply say, don't climb over the fence.

I've already posted two realistic and not terribly unusual situations in which a tethered climber might well find themselves above a rap anchor.

As for having a tether always weighted, sure...except it isn't going to happen.

Also been doing a little bit of searching on UV resistance of nylon vs dyneema and the sailing industry might have something to say about the charts that were posted earlier.

that guy named seb wrote:Also been doing a little bit of searching on UV resistance of nylon vs dyneema and the sailing industry might have something to say about the charts that were posted earlier.

So youl take some "sailing industry" chart over multiyear studies done by the largest and most respected climbing club on actual climbing (not sailing) gear in climbing environments

Not to mention that the DAV is backed up by more articles published in the journal of mountian risk management, Bergundsteigen

Ooooooo-kaaay dere

;)

An additional red flag about the the sailing chart validity is their note that "spectra isn't affected by flex loss."

This is news to everyone who has seen Tom Moyers/BD testing user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/t…. Nylon isn't affected; everything else ultimately weakens significantly more than nylon, around 200 cycles being the boundary point.

rgold wrote:You can't have it both ways

The problem is with using logic to argue here rgold, is the guy you are debating against doesn't believe in the validity of logic. ;-)

that guy named seb wrote:Your idea of don't fall and a tether confuses me, a tether should be weighted constantly or consider your self soloing

That is an extremely long way from reality. Personally, the vast majority of the time my tether is not weighted at all.

that guy named seb wrote:anyway IMO tethers should only be used for either sport climbing or rappelling, in these situations i struggle to see the need to climb above the anchor.

While the majority of the time my tie in is my rope, there are plenty of times in trad climbing or aid climbing that tethers may be used.

Plenty of rappel anchor are in steep locations that are approached from ABOVE. Normal practice would be to clip it as soon as you are within reach. Bang, you are already looking at a FF2. Of course you could wait until you climb below the anchor, but then you ARE soloing.

(Placing rappel anchors in steep locations is common. Placing anchors in well back from edges is a great way of ending up not being able to pull your ropes.)

rgold wrote:An additional red flag about the the sailing chart validity is their note that "spectra isn't affected by flex loss." This is news to everyone who has seen Tom Moyers/BD testing user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/t…. Nylon isn't affected; everything else ultimately weakens significantly more than nylon, around 200 cycles being the boundary point.

It might depend on the application. This website also claims no flex loss for Dyneema, and they are a manufacturer:

northcloth.northsails.com/P…

These guys seem to imply the same:

ussailing.org/wp-content/up…

It's possible that in the application of sailing, the material does in fact not exhibit any flex loss. Two different applications with, I suspect, two very different methods of testing.