History of ethics of lowering and TRing through fixed gear/quickdraws

J Q wrote: That is the definition of sport climbing. Climbing 5.10 with bolts is called chuffing, perhaps there are a few 7a's that could be called sport climbing if you really want to argue it. Way to explain in detail over and over again that you represent camp 1 to the maximum, bra! Do you also take those nasty bail biners at the top of the climb before you rappel?

There are certain American rights that shall not be infringed. The right to pack heat while white, the right for n00bs to act like they know something, and the right to low priced saturated fats.

Shall not be infringed!!!

Having put up many routes, both sport and trad, I can tell you it has always been my intention to have folks lower off through my anchors. This is why I began using mussy hooks attached to screwgate rings... so that worn out mussies could be replaced easily with new mussies (preferably) or carabiners. Having folks clip in to the anchor, untie from their rope (dangerous per se), then retie in (hopefully correctly) ups the chances of death considerably.

equating death to rapping now, holy shit the internet is good.

but hey man, I back that shit up top and bottom AND wear a helmet and pads!

sometimes I rap just so my belayer can roll one up for me or go block the next spurt climb

So many "always" and "never" posted here, it makes me sad to see people suggesting such inflexible rules. Know the pros and cons of both methods and use which ever best fits your current situation. Jeez, this is climbing 101

eli poss wrote:So many "always" and "never" posted here, it makes me sad to see people suggesting such inflexible rules. Know the pros and cons of both methods and use which ever best fits your current situation. Jeez, this is climbing 101

Thank you.

eli poss wrote:So many "always" and "never" posted here, it makes me sad to see people suggesting such inflexible rules. Know the pros and cons of both methods and use which ever best fits your current situation. Jeez, this is climbing 101

Trouble is Eli, you are still in your invincible stage. Like a lot of good climbers.

For example, do you take this same "know the pros and cons" attitude to tying a knot in the end of the rope at sport crags? Do it sometimes, but not other times?

Because maybe now you are attentive enough and smart enough to be right every single time and never drop anybody off the end. And maybe you'll always be smart enough and attentive enough.

But Dave MacLeod wasn't. How many surgeries has he had on his foot?

Plenty of other folks weren't either.

So you know what? I'm just going to make a habit of tying a knot in the end of my rope. And as long as I do the same thing every single time, that's one less way for me to get hurt or to accidentally hurt one of my friends.

Don't get me wrong, if there's a genuine reason to depart from SOP, then I'll do it.

But developing safe habits is worth the effort, IMHO.

That's why I advocate always lowering off single pitch sport climbs.
Neither rapping nor lowering is inherently safer than the other.
What kills people is when the belayer and the climber have different expectations of what's going to happen. When the climber sometimes raps or sometimes lowers.
Since I can always lower, I will always lower.

Some folks confine themselves to low angle, non-traversing sport climbs. In that case, it would be reasonable to choose to always rap. Just don't expect me to want to sport climb with you.

I don't mind at all if other folks choose to rap.
What I mind is people telling me that I should decrease my margin of safety just to preserve the anchors.
I recognize that I put a little more wear on the anchors and contribute to local climbing organizations to make up for that.

Just out of curiosity Ted (and you other pro-rappelers), how much have you contributed this last year?
Route development? Bolt replacement? Monetary contributions?
How many are Access Fund Members?

Mark E Dixon wrote: Trouble is Eli, you are still in your invincible stage. Like a lot of good climbers. For example, do you take this same "know the pros and cons" attitude to tying a knot in the end of the rope at sport crags? Do it sometimes, but not other times?

I use a double overhand to connect the bottom end of my rope to my rope bag, which I almost always use when sport climbing, so I have a knot in the end virtually 100% of the time I sport climb.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for developing safe habits to guide your usage 90% of the time. But if you want to maximize your chances of survival in this inherently dangerous activity, you must be able to use good judgement and knowledge to guide you when your habits may not. While sport climbing probably falls within the realm of habits most of the time, I don't know many climbers who exclusively sport climb. Point is, safe habits won't always keep you covered.

FWIW, I rarely rappel in a single pitch environment because of convenience and speed, and also because the hardware in question is relatively durable and, in some cases, paid for and put in place by me.

Mark E Dixon wrote: What kills people is when the belayer and the climber have different expectations of what's going to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I also advocate lowering when possible. It's just easier. But I think you're really arguing for "always make a plan, always communicate to that plan, always stick to that plan" which is a very different habit.

There are certain specific rules that I follow every time I leave the ground. Tugging on my rope is one of them, weighting my rap rig when I rappel is another. But mostly, I try not to be a creature of specific habit so that I don't become blind to a specific failure mode.

J Q wrote: No one will take the time to really answer the question? Sheeh, I will. Answer: Yes. Really this is an argument of two camps, and usually those camps choose to frequent different crags, so it's not a geographical thing but a social/psychological thing. I have been to the lovely shit show called Ton-Sai and truly that is one of the few places where both of these camps go to climb, so that could be one reason why you are just noticing this now. Camp one has a mixture of Old, weird, weak, chuffish, and dangerous climbers, many of which are obsessed with gear and some of which will eventually die. How many more people have to hit the ground repelling before camp one changes their behavior? A lot more. Camp two is a group of people who regularly sport climb, project routes, push themselves physically, and don't care nearly as much about the gear as about getting to the next route. They recognize that so much time and money is spent training, getting to the crag, etc, they never think about the gear, and they lower through what is sometimes fucking crazily suspect shit. This is the real answer. Many of the people in camp two actively leave biners at their crags to help stop this nonsense. To them we should listen up and tip our hats. However, they don't leave them at the crags of camp one, and when camp one does visit a camp two crag, camp one just steals those biners and claims it's booty while making up excuses about ethics and repelling. Then camp one leaves those stolen biners as actual booty when over their head, and camp two rescues them again to be placed where they should be, at the top of the climb for easy lowering. It's a nice little self repeating process we get to poke fun at several times a year up in here. Ask yourself fools: Which camp are you? You stealing lowering biners or rescuing booty biners?

Brilliant!

CAMP 1 STINKS!!!!

Again ... the issue is not the danger of rapping. The issue is the real increased risk of death at a sport crag when climbers have to repeatedly untie and tie back in to their harness while 80 feet off the deck. Very simple ... when you can clip the anchors and lower off immediately ... and not untie/retie ... this is much safer.

Todd Graham wrote:Again ... the issue is not the danger of rapping. The issue is the real increased risk of death at a sport crag when climbers have to repeatedly untie and tie back in to their harness while 80 feet off the deck. Very simple ... when you can clip the anchors and lower off immediately ... and not untie/retie ... this is much safer.

No need to untie on any climb with decent sized rap rings on it and certainly no need for gym style clips at the top of every climb.

T Roper wrote:Real climbers down whip it bro.

Don't get me started on the kind of impact you're putting on the bolt when you down whip it. Think about the children, man! Forget rapping vs. lowering, let's turn this into a down whipping vs. downleading thread!

T Roper wrote: No need to untie on any climb with decent sized rap rings on it and certainly no need for gym style clips at the top of every climb.

Possibly when you think about what you wrote you´ll decide to use the edit facility :-)

Jim Titt wrote: Possibly when you think about what you wrote you´ll decide to use the edit facility :-)

you are a fan of downwhipping too?

Please TR off you own gear I beleieve the claim was these were about a year old. (This isn't my photo, but I imagine whoever it was wanted the word to spread)

PS 3/8 Super Shut $18.00
SS 3/8 Super Shut $22.00
Questions???

Tim Lutz wrote: 5.10 bottomfeeder challenges OG developer of not only routes but gear. classic MP

Nobody 2/10's like T Roper.

Dude is a master.

Sometimes at the gym I send 10+ Timmy Lulz.

T Roper wrote:Sometimes at the gym I send 10+ Timmy Lulz.

Well, you're almost good enough to do the warm up.

The common belief that rapping is more dangerous than lowering is quite the myth. The most recent accidents along the Front Range have been lowering accidents where the climber sat back expecting the belayer to have them but the belayer in fact did not. A sad father/son tragedy happened like this last summer at Clear Creek. There haven't been any rapping accidents like this in...... forever.

William Thiry wrote:The common belief that rapping is more dangerous than lowering is quite the myth. The most recent accidents along the Front Range have been lowering accidents where the climber sat back expecting the belayer to have them but the belayer in fact did not. A sad father/son tragedy happened like this last summer at Clear Creek. There haven't been any rapping accidents like this in...... forever.

There is no way to accurately calculate which is more dangerous. The denominators are unknown and the number of accidents is fortunately low enough to make the data too random.

IIRC, the Canal Zone accident you refer to occurred when the climber failed to thread the anchor properly before rappelling.
The recent accident in New Mexico apparently had a similar cause.
The accident several years ago at Cat Slab was another failure to thread event.

The accident at Highwire was a lower/rappel miscommunication event.
Craig Dimartino's accident was likewise a lower/rap miscommunication, although at a trad area, not a sport route.

The accident at Plotinus was a lower off the end of the rope episode.

Lots of ways to get hurt.
In my opinion, worth trying to avoid them even if it means replacing anchors a little more often.