Second hang board question- doubles

The Eva Lopez/Dave MacLeod routines use single max hangs. I've always felt this didn't give me enough volume without extending the length of the hangboard session tremendously.

I have been experimenting with a two rep, repeater type program, 8 second hang, 4 second rest, 8 second hang, then rest until 3 minutes comes up (i.e. rest 2 minutes and 40 seconds) then repeat.
So far I like it, but time will tell if it is helpful.

Anybody with experience or insights willing to share?

Buy this
trango.com/p-284-rock-climb…

A very intelligent approach to training, i suppose at all levels, even we 5.12 humans!
You can search all sorts of threads here and elsewhere, pros and cons, reviews. One of the best climbing investments i have made.
My $.02

Mark, IMO repeaters and max hang are not easily hybridized. I'll always warm up with some weighted repeaters. However, my max hangs are generally so painful and strenuous that I need five minutes to compose myself for another 1 rep set. Yes, this makes for a two hour workout, minimum, but it is easy to multitask with the long rests. I only hb at home, which helps. Repeaters (even two repeaters) force me onto much larger holds. I'm not saying that is bad, but it doesn't allow me to as easily target that low volume/ultra-high intensity zone I crave. Maybe I'm just obsessed with 1/4 inch edges!

Repeaters and max hangs are different workouts all together. So it depends on what you're looking to get out of your training. I believe Steve Bechtel said it perfectly when he said something like "once you begin to feel tired, you've left the path of strength training." Hopefully I didn't butcher that too badly. The max hang workouts are so short because they are incredibly intense (going to 90% or so), so you shouldn't be able to handle much volume.

This doesn't answer your question but speaking of different routines, I'm curious if anyone has experience with the Metolius hangboard routine shown on their website? It's a 10-minute session with a different exercise each minute. It allows plenty of rest (eg if an exercise takes 10 seconds, you rest for the next 50 seconds).

It has worked really well for me the last month. Has anyone else tried it and if so, what do you think? Would you recommend multiple 10-minute sets in a row?

Metolius training

"I have been experimenting with a two rep, repeater type program, 8 second hang, 4 second rest, 8 second hang, then rest until 3 minutes comes up"

Interesting. When I did Max hangs I picked the smallest edge I can hang for 8-12 seconds. After I hang on it for 8-12, I need at least a minute to repeat 8-12 second hang. If you can repeat 8 seconds after only 4 seconds of rest, maybe you can hang on it longer and you let go only because 8 seconds have passed?

Again, I am probably wrong, but my HB routine was 4 sets of 10 on 10 off repeat 8 times alternating with 7 on 3 off. During these 4-5 sets I worked up to the smaller features, warming up my fingers for it.

Than I would do the max hang on the small edge for 8-12 seconds, take a minute of rest and repeat that 6 times which I considered a set. Than do this 1 or 2 more times depending how my fingers feel and if I am starting to fail much quicker. I try to finish the workout while still 'on top.' In between sets I would do leg raises/kick outs which I paused in the L position for 5-10 seconds or so. Rested about 5 minutes between sets.

Welcome critique to this type of a workout too...

Mark E Dixon wrote:The Eva Lopez/Dave MacLeod routines use single max hangs. I've always felt this didn't give me enough volume without extending the length of the hangboard session tremendously.

The difference, IMO, between this & the RPTC workout has always been what else you are doing. I think the single max hangs are to be supplemented by other climbing/bouldering, etc, whereas the RPTC workout is sufficient on its own.

FWIW, Mike A & I have done both. For max hangs, we do ~4-5 grips as a set & we both feel that our 2nd set is the strongest, & we see marked drop-off by set 3. We'd usually then do a repeater style next time around (although when workouts are more sporadic, we usually ended-up doing more max hangs). I think in a gym setting max hang makes more sense as a supplement to everything else; at home I do more repeater/longer interval style hangs.

Edit to add: I think people that gravitates toward the endurance spectrum have trouble performing max strength/power. So I'd say do the doubles that are working for you for now & then gradually experiment with 1 rep max when you get better at max strength/power.

Muscrat wrote:Buy this

I don't think there are many dedicated climbers in the Front Range that doesn't know about RPTC. But bear in mind it is still a cookie-cutter approach, even if very effective for a lot of people. A lot of us are interested in experimenting/tailoring training to our unique circumstances.

reboot wrote: I don't think there are many dedicated climbers in the Front Range that doesn't know about RPTC. But bear in mind it is still a cookie-cutter approach, even if very effective for a lot of people. A lot of us are interested in experimenting/tailoring training to our unique circumstances.

And how may i ask, is one to know who is a front ranger, and who a n00b?
:—)
My bad, thought we had a n00b, even thought troll, as he posted a second (first) thread with similar inquiry.
Yes, cookie cutter, but a good place to start thinking, instead of just digging holes.
And Mark, art thou an artiste, a fop, or a word smith? Your location is sprezzatura?
HA! Love it!

Sounds like contact strength question...maybe accomplished better by campusing?

Ryan and Jesse Morse-Brady wrote: I find it surprising how if you bump to your hold you power dissipated much quicker than going at it from a standing position.

That's a really interesting observation. You could work this on the campus board too, although usually the smallest edge is the small metolius rung. Can't take weight off, but would probably be adding anyway...

What kind of reps/sets do you do with your bumps?

Stephen- thanks for your insights. My smallest edge is 8 mm, plenty small enough for my feeble projects!

Muscrat- RCTM is a great book, every serious climber should own it. I agree with Reboot, it provides one approach, which each climber would need to modify to suit his/her idiosyncrasies. A linear training plan doesn't seem to work so well for me, as I seem to lose the earliest trained aspects faster than would be expected. Might be an age issue, or just me.

Toby- if your repeaters are just for warming up, then your workout structure makes sense. If they are for training, then traditional teaching is to do high intensity first. So max hangs followed by repeaters, if doing both.

Sean- I think 1RM is more like 97% effort. 90% puts you in the realm of 2-3RM, which is what I'm experimenting with.

From Wikipedia-
Sprezzatura [sprettsaˈtuːra] is an Italian word originating from Baldassare Castiglione's The Book of the Courtier, where it is defined by the author as "a certain nonchalance, so as to conceal all art and make whatever one does or says appear to be without effort and almost without any thought about it".[1] It is the ability of the courtier to display "an easy facility in accomplishing difficult actions which hides the conscious effort that went into them".[2]

What's your goal? Without knowing why you want to hangboard, it's impossible to actually build a plan for yourself that will accomplish anything.

Max weighted hangs are completely different than repeaters - think sprinting vs long distance running. One builds strength the other builds endurance. If you're getting pumped on the hangboard you're not building any strength.

Blake Cash wrote:Without knowing why you want to hangboard, it's impossible to actually build a plan for yourself that will accomplish anything.

I don't know Mark's specific objectives, but I don't agree with this line of reasoning. There's plenty value to just "get stronger" or "work on your weaknesses" w/o a specific outdoor objective in mind. In fact, it's easy to identify the wrong thing to work on when you are too focused on an objective: you may not realize it's a weakness that's preventing you from doing things the easier way vs trying to get stronger in your strength (one instinctively sees beta sequences that utilizes their strength (isn't that what technique is: application of one's strength?))

I understand RCTM advocates specific objectives, and I do agree it helps you keep focused during training. But now that we are in the winter months, I think it's the perfect time for a broader training regiment.

reboot wrote: I don't know Mark's specific objectives, but I don't agree with this line of reasoning. There's plenty value to just "get stronger" or "work on your weaknesses" w/o a specific outdoor objective in mind. In fact, it's easy to identify the wrong thing to work on when you are too focused on an objective: you may not realize it's a weakness that's preventing you from doing things the easier way vs trying to get stronger in your strength (one instinctively sees beta sequences that utilizes their strength (isn't that what technique is: application of one's strength?)) I understand RCTM advocates specific objectives, and I do agree it helps you keep focused during training. But now that we are in the winter months, I think it's the perfect time for a broader training regiment.

You misunderstood. I'm not talking about specific route/boulder goals. If you're trying to build power, you don't first go straight to the campus board, you actually gain strength first, then coordinate the strength into power.

Same goes for finger boarding. If your problem is weak fingers, then repeaters will have you seeing less gains than max hangs...just because you don't feel "wrecked" doesn't mean that the workout didn't do its job.

I was merely saying that one should know what they are seeking to gain and have a base of knowledge in how to make that gain. Just saying "getting stronger fingers" isn't that specific. How do you fail? what types of holds? Are you climbing in the Red? Or are you climbing at Wild Iris...those are going to have two totally different plans to build around.

I'd also add that the winter for a lot of people is THE season...so also keeping that in mind while training.

mark, have you thought about doing both in one workout, or maybe alternating workouts? ie, examples:

1) both in same workout, kind of like complex training. do the max hang set first, wait a period of time (not sure whether short rest or full rest would be better here), then do a repeater set. do this 2 or 3 times each for 4 to 6 grips.

2) tuesdays repeaters, thursday max hangs.

slim wrote:mark, have you thought about doing both in one workout, or maybe alternating workouts? ie, examples: 1) both in same workout, kind of like complex training. do the max hang set first, wait a period of time (not sure whether short rest or full rest would be better here), then do a repeater set. do this 2 or 3 times each for 4 to 6 grips. 2) tuesdays repeaters, thursday max hangs.

I think the major argument here would be that doing complex training for the fingers (they are the weakest link in the body chain) makes them more susceptible to injury and will not result in big enough gains to justify the training. Also...if making strength gains is the goal, pumping them out with repeaters during max hangs will defeat having fully rested tendons for the next max hang. You cannot hang with maximum weight and make maximum gains if you're not 100% rested - which is the idea with strength training.

I'd say that again, the goal for the training will define the training to be done. What end result is wanted?

Complex training is awesome for large muscle groups (ie. hypertrophy sets) where having more mass in the muscle is ideal such as biceps or lats.

Blake Cash wrote: Also...if making strength gains is the goal, pumping them out with repeaters during max hangs will defeat having fully rested tendons for the next max hang.

You are right, but that doesn't mean what Mark's doing, if meant as a transition, is inappropriate. When you transition from strength to endurance, you don't go load up on all the sets: you gradually decrease intensity while increasing volume. Conversely, if you are lacking neuromuscular recruitment for max effort, then 2 rep could be a better workout during this transition stage.

Blake Cash wrote:You cannot hang with maximum weight and make maximum gains if you're not 100% rested - which is the idea with strength training.

It's often quoted but not backed up by anything scientific that I know of. In fact, some of our members here seem to have had the opposite experience. My own sense is your gain is proportional to the overall training volume (at a target intensity) you can handle, whether that be infrequent long sessions or more frequent shorter sessions.

However, infrequent long sessions are more time efficient, and I see why RCTM advocates that. But that definitely isn't the norm in the professional circuit.

Thanks again for replies!

Dana- good to hear from you- let's go climbing sometime.

Will S- I actually am doing what you suggest, doubles followed by a repeater workout either right away or later in the day. Will see how it works.

Reboot- I have plenty of weaknesses to go around, so agree with general strengthening. I also wonder how well established the "only train when fresh" mantra is. Seems like over-reaching is pretty well established as a training technique. Another problem I face is rapid detraining. If I always wait till I'm fresh before I train again, I find I lose more than I gain. Might be an age issue.

Blake- I think classifying doubles as repeaters may be inaccurate. Even power lifters commonly use 2 and 3RM sets rather than always use 1RMs. I agree going out to 5-6 reps seems to change things.

FWIW, I'm planning to switch to single max reps in a couple of weeks. Haven't decided on duration, would be interested in hearing opinions. 10 seconds seems too long, 6 too short, so maybe 8?

Mark E Dixon wrote:Thanks again for replies! Dana- good to hear from you- let's go climbing sometime. Will S- I actually am doing what you suggest, doubles followed by a repeater workout either right away or later in the day. Will see how it works. Reboot- I have plenty of weaknesses to go around, so agree with general strengthening. I also wonder how well established the "only train when fresh" mantra is. Seems like over-reaching is pretty well established as a training technique. Another problem I face is rapid detraining. If I always wait till I'm fresh before I train again, I find I lose more than I gain. Might be an age issue. Blake- I think classifying doubles as repeaters may be inaccurate. Even power lifters commonly use 2 and 3RM sets rather than always use 1RMs. I agree going out to 5-6 reps seems to change things. FWIW, I'm planning to switch to single max reps in a couple of weeks. Haven't decided on duration, would be interested in hearing opinions. 10 seconds seems too long, 6 too short, so maybe 8?

Yeah...I also think my usage of "maximum" was inaccurately understood. I don't mean how long you can hang for 1 second or your 1RM. That's my mistake for using that term. I think Max weighted hangs gets used more than not and I simply used it to mean "the amount of weight you can hang onto for ~7 seconds ". That's how I determine my "max" weight to be used. 7 seconds (or 8 if you want) is, I think, the magic number. Then 3 minutes rest between sets of 7-8 seconds.

Same goes for the strength building with weights...the trick is finding your 1RM then working at about 80% of that for strength gains. You'd never produce the load needed to build strength if you were always performing your 1RM.

Sorry for the mix-up!

Mark E Dixon wrote:Haven't decided on duration, would be interested in hearing opinions. 10 seconds seems too long, 6 too short, so maybe 8?

Mark, have you looked into Steve Maisch's training ideas? I was listening to his interview on Training Beta the other day. He advocates for 10 second single max hangs and had an interesting theory about it. Hopefully I don't butcher it too badly...

He thought the 6-7 seconds that we use for repeaters came from that being roughly the amount of time that we use an individual handhold while climbing. He hypothesized that a certain number of muscle fibers are trained to contract during those typical 6-7 seconds. In the seconds immediately following, different muscle fibers are being recruited for the contraction, which is where he thinks most of the gains come from.

Here's a link to his hangboard workout:
stevemaischtraining.com/fin…

Just a follow up.

Looks like I did 15 sessions of hang board doubles (2RM) over 8 weeks.
Switched to 6-8 second 1RM sets about two weeks ago.

1RM sets do require max effort every rep. This is good but more stressful. Overall volume is lower too.

My general sense is that 2RMs are a good compromise and worth using by me to mx up training once in a while.

Mark, when I did a high-frequency cycle as an experiment last summer, I used doubles after working up to a max single, in order to add volume on the heavy days.

I was on a routine that was basically, HB 10/5sec repeaters on day 1, HB work up to max single then drop to doubles on day 2, bouldering no harder than flash level on day 3, rest on day 4. There was also core work, deadlifts and such in there. Recovery was the biggest issue, and I put on weight. Slept a ton, ate a ton, still had trouble recovering. It did bootstrap me out of a lingering weakeness post shoulder-injury.

I added the doubles for TUT/volume purposes and would typically do 2-3 sets of doubles after hitting the max 10sec single. Those doubles were done around 80-85% of the weight for the max single (includes bodyweight in % calcs). I'd work up to the max single over about 8 sets. I usually hit the max on the first attempt, but wouldn't try more than 3 attempts at it if I missed. Then if I'd hit it first or second try, I'd drop down for sets of doubles.

I think we try to over-optimize a lot of these protocols. Powerlifters have gotten insanely strong on all kinds of protocols. The famous Bulgarian type high intensity, high frequency, low vol approach, and the Russian med intensity, med freq, high vol approach have both produced a stable full of champion lifters.

After years of experimenting with max singles, I'm finding the best use of them as maintenance or as supplemental work. For a dedicated phase and ultimate transfer to actually climbing things, I think repeaters are the better choice. But I still do both, just not phase-long max singles anymore.