Mountain Project Logo

My Miuras-- Technique or Bum Pair?

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

Agreed. To add my anecdotal evidence, between my closest climbing partners and I, we own probably 5 pairs of Katana Laces alone, and ALL of them delaminated at the toe. After resole, no problems. My previous pair of Katana velcros, same thing. On the other hand, my Miura velcros had no such problems, nor did my TC Pros.

When I used to work in a gym, pretty much anyone who had any generation of Katanas would complain about delaming toes. It's a known problem, but it hasn't been adequately addressed in the many, many years that this has been an issue. It wouldn't be so bad if Sportivas weren't also the most expensive things on the market, by a long shot.

But I suppose the only thing to do from here is vote with your wallet. Unfortunately for me, the fit and style of the Sportivas fits my feet and use better than anything else out there, so it's worth having to resole early for the long-term use of the shoe.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Tapas wrote: Or seen somebody else's shoe delam in person?
Probably...

I've posted this Scarpa blog link more than once & it's worth quoting the following:

Why not make higher temperature glue in an effort to mitigate delaminating issues? Rock climbers want the ultimate in performance, and higher temperature glue would make shoes stiffer and less sensitive, says (Heinz) Mariacher

Btw, Heinz Mariacher is the legendary shoe designer that brought you the Sportiva Testarossa (the Mirage before that) & popularized downturned climbing shoes. He moved to Scarpa, designed the Mago & almost all the current performance shoes like Instinct VS, Booster S, etc.

I don't climb on anything besides Scarpa & (to a lesser extent) Sportiva anymore. I've certainly had my share of delam (Sportiva has been the worst offender by far, but I use them for crack or long routes outside), including resoles, but it seems to happen less the better I take care of my shoes, although that's not always possible. I guess just like cars, you buy Italian for style & performance, not durability.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

In general La Sportiva has delamination issues.

Not just with Miura's.

"Moccasyms actually have a 4.2mm sole, the miura has 4mm."

Deceptive, but the Miura's have about 1-1.5mm at the toe.

"Looks can be deceiving".

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
shoo wrote:Agreed. To add my anecdotal evidence, between my closest climbing partners and I, we own probably 5 pairs of Katana Laces alone, and ALL of them delaminated at the toe. After resole, no problems. Unfortunately for me, the fit and style of the Sportivas fits my feet and use better than anything else out there, so it's worth having to resole early for the long-term use of the shoe.
same

i buy sportiva for the fit and resole ... though lately scarpa and tenaya seem to be fitting just as well, without the need for an early resole

;)
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Hmm...any idea if crack climbing can exacerbate this issue? Or, for that matfer...toe hooks?

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330
Tapas wrote:Am I the only person who has never had a pair of La Sportivas delam?
Nope, I've been using Sportiva's on & off since the Mariacher's came out and I don't recall any of mine having delam problems. I guess I'll consider myself lucky based on all the comments.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

Without exaggeration about 97 out of 100 pairs of La Sportiva shoes will be at some level of delamination by the time they get in the shop. On the Miuras it's almost always right at the tip. On TC Pro's it's ALWAYS on the sides/uppers (Can't think of a pair that didn't have the issue). Mythos almost always have some delamination of the sole along the mid section.

I've never understood why they don't do something to fix the problem. Other companies shoes delam also, but no where near as often.

Oddly, they remain the most popular shoe company.

ROCKMAN2 · · Nederland, CO · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 320

When one considers the market share that Sportiva has, especially in the US, there are simply FAR more Sportivas floating around than any other climbing shoe COMBINED. The delams and all other warranty issues that will arise are going to seem disproportionate for this reason.

I've worn just about everything, and had a delam issue with just about everything. 5.10, Evolv, Boreal, Scarpa, Acopa... I even had some puma climbing shoes with stealth rubber that had delam issues, but my footwork was heinous back then so I'm sure it was operator error.

Comparing shoes side by side doesn't make any sense either. Every individual shoe has been subjected to a unique life of thrashing. No two climbing shoes can seriously be compared with any true degree of intellectual integrity.

In the end, any piece of gear can fail or be destroyed, especially when production increases at a meteoric rate to keep up with the growth of climbing/gyms/gumbys. More shoes + new climbers = more visible issues. Pretty simple.

Call it what you will, excuses etc.. I call it math and logic.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
NWNINJA wrote:When one considers the market share that Sportiva has, especially in the US, there are simply FAR more Sportivas floating around than any other climbing shoe COMBINED. The delams and all other warranty issues that will arise are going to seem disproportionate for this reason. I've worn just about everything, and had a delam issue with just about everything. 5.10, Evolv, Boreal, Scarpa, Acopa... I even had some puma climbing shoes with stealth rubber that had delam issues, but my footwork was heinous back then so I'm sure it was operator error. Comparing shoes side by side doesn't make any sense either. Every individual shoe has been subjected to a unique life of thrashing. No two climbing shoes can seriously be compared with any true degree of intellectual integrity. In the end, any piece of gear can fail or be destroyed, especially when production increases at a meteoric rate to keep up with the growth of climbing/gyms/gumbys. More shoes + new climbers = more visible issues. Pretty simple. Call it what you will, excuses etc.. I call it math and logic.
how weird that quite a few of us here use resoles of the SAME SHOES and different brands on the same climbs ... and they dont delaminate with the same frequency

you dont work for sportiva do you now, are you a sportiva dealer, are you one of their sponsored climbers?

perhaps you could provide us with the share of the major shoe brands for the us climbing shoe market?

;)
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
NWNINJA wrote:I call it math and logic.
I call it a lack of understanding of the meaning of the word "disproportionate."

The anecdotes here have said that an unusually high proportion of La Sportiva shoes have delaminating issues. They did NOT say that a high proportion of shoes that delaminated were La Sportiva.
ROCKMAN2 · · Nederland, CO · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 320

Ad hominem and red herring fallacies are weak ammo guys..

This happens to be a topic that I've pondered for many years and my opinion shifts as new evidence/data emerges.

No one likes it when they drop what little money they have on expensive climbing shoes, only to have them fail/degrade prematurely. I'm sure most climbers are passionately connected to this subject to some degree.

To be frank, I was on the other side of this proverbial fence maybe 6 months ago. After I did the research and looked at the numbers (I'm not at liberty to discuss these details and spray MP with them so I won't) I had to recant.

Sadly, it is far too easy to form a belief based on the fodder of internet forums and other sources of "information" out there.

Believe what you will, I have nothing to lose or gain here. It is always wise to ensure your opinions are well-informed by empirical data and always be open to the possibility that you are completely wrong, that there is some detail you've overlooked etc...

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
NWNINJA wrote:Ad hominem and red herring fallacies are weak ammo guys.. This happens to be a topic that I've pondered for many years and my opinion shifts as new evidence/data emerges. No one likes it when they drop what little money they have on expensive climbing shoes, only to have them fail/degrade prematurely. I'm sure most climbers are passionately connected to this subject to some degree. To be frank, I was on the other side of this proverbial fence maybe 6 months ago. After I did the research and looked at the numbers (I'm not at liberty to discuss these details and spray MP with them so I won't) I had to recant. Sadly, it is far too easy to form a belief based on the fodder of internet forums and other sources of "information" out there. Believe what you will, I have nothing to lose or gain here. It is always wise to ensure your opinions are well-informed by empirical data and always be open to the possibility that you are completely wrong, that there is some detail you've overlooked etc...
of dear god ... i simply asked if you were affiliated with sportiva and you go off and play the "victim" whining about "ad hominem" attacks ???????

the simple fact is that quite a few of us here and in the UK (read the UKClimbing thread) have had these issue with sportiva, and have much less issues even with resoles on those SAME SHOES ... and even other brands

is lockers resole that much better quality than the original sportiva???

so you have "data" and yr not willing to share, yet yr making excuses for sportiva ... again i ask do you work for em, sponsored by them, or are a dealer for em?

if you are please disclose this up front

this wouldnt happen to be you would it now?

from sportivas instagram

weve all posted our experiences, good or bad ... and links to the experiences of others ....

and here youve come saying "its all your own fault" without any supporting data ... just "trust me i know"

how are you getting yr data, is it from sportiva, retailers, or other sources .... or is that as top secret as the NSA too

;)
VRP · · Morrison, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 45

Just to add, I have a pair of Miuras I've babied for harder sport routes only ddelaming the same way at the toe/rand after maybe 7 days on rock. My older pair that took three resoles did not have this issue. A resole should fix the issue.

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525

Anecdotally... the majority of people I climb with wear 5.10, very few of them have had shoe delaminations. I and a couple others wear Sportiva, and we've all experienced delamination on multiple new shoes that doesn't recur after resole.

NWNINJA, anecdotes aren't hard evidence, but they're more convincing than some sort of top secret numbers/data/evidence that you're somehow privvy to but not at liberty to discuss. I'd like to "ensure your opinions are well-informed by empirical data" but honestly I think a resoler is as relevant a source as a manufacturer and I doubt Locker is getting a cut from 5.10 for ragging on sportivas.

ROCKMAN2 · · Nederland, CO · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 320

I never asked anyone to agree with my thoughts, I'm simply attempting to paint a more complete/clear picture on the original topic based on the evidence I've found.

I also never said that it is purely operator error, they certainly can prematurely delaminate. All shoes can. I've had several pairs of Miuras, Katanas, and Katana laces that have had problems and a resole usually does the job. In that picture I'm wearing 3-year-old solutions 2 resoles deep.

We've all been presented with different evidence and different experiences so it makes sense that we have different conclusions.

Simply put, I used to share the opinions of many folks on on this topic. Now I'm rather certain that I was wrong. Do your own research and see what you find. There are probably a multitude of causal factors you have not considered, like how many climbers flail up 5.10 vs float up 5.13 or wear their shoes when they're not climbing.

I'll stop feeding the trolls now.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
NWNINJA wrote:I never asked anyone to agree with my thoughts, I'm simply attempting to paint a more complete/clear picture on the original topic based on the evidence I've found. I also never said that it is purely operator error, they certainly can prematurely delaminate. All shoes can. I've had several pairs of Miuras, Katanas, and Katana laces that have had problems and a resole usually does the job. In that picture I'm wearing 3-year-old solutions 2 resoles deep. We've all been presented with different evidence and different experiences so it makes sense that we have different conclusions. Simply put, I used to share the opinions of many folks on on this topic. Now I'm rather certain that I was wrong. Do your own research and see what you find. There are probably a multitude of causal factors you have not considered, like how many climbers flail up 5.10 vs float up 5.13 or wear their shoes when they're not climbing. I'll stop feeding the trolls now.
Again ...

Do you work for, deal, are sponsored or are otherwise affiliated with sportiva?

If you do it would be "intellectually dishonest" (what you accuse others of) to hide that fact ... Especially as yr claiming "secret data" ans making excuses for sportiva

How else do you have access to this secret information that you cant share

;)

;)
nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
bearbreeder wrote: ;) ;)
Woah when the double ;) comes out you know it's getting serious
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

Just did another shoe pickup/drop off to Nomads (Joshua Tree). Within the batch are quite a few pairs of different model La Sportiva's.

All have delamination issues exactly as I described earlier.

TC Pros on both sides of the uppers.

Miuras right at the toe.

Mythos at the midsole area and the uppers.

No other shoe company is anywhere near as consistent with delamination's.

EDITE:

Did find one pair of Tarantulaces with ZERO delam issues.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Same thing happened to my Katanas and my friend had the same problem. We got two new pairs of shoes together in a sale at Neptune for around 55 bucks a pair.

In the store I did notice that the way they rubber on the sole was shaped was not well done. It was really thin where the rubber is gone in the picture on the first post. This was on both pairs on all shoes and all the shoes ended up looking like that. I got them because of the price and expecting to resole soon but not after a month and half.

Amanda Smith · · Fayetteville, WV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 853

I've had this happen randomly with brand new climbing shoes. Sometimes its them, sometimes its you. If you've used them for less than a month, the dealer will typically replace them for you. The best advice is to email them quickly and get a confirmation that they'll replace them. I had a pair do this recently where I only used them six times in one month, whereas the rubber on another pair of shoes lasted approximately one year.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Climbing Gear Discussion
Post a Reply to "My Miuras-- Technique or Bum Pair?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.