Does the "magic x" make a daisy chain safe?

If yr worried about it just make a tether out of dynamic rope

The ENSA video i posted shows how to do so

Knotted dynamic rope in good condition have been proven to hold at least one FF2 fall on steel weights

Its also been proven to keep the impact forces around 6-8 KN .... Thats below the uiaa 12 KN threshold

If you want to spend $$$$$ both beal and petzl sell lanyards made out of dynamic rope

Or just make yr own for a few dollahz

;)

Don't you people ever get tired of this shit? I've been pretty amused at watching this simple thing go on and on and wondering when it will stop.

frank minunni wrote:Don't you people ever get tired of this shit? I've been pretty amused at watching this simple thing go on and on and wondering when it will stop.

it never stops frank

da intrawebz (including me) love to argue about senseless little things that are least likely to kill you

and ignore the ones that are likely to make u go KAPUT ...

though to be fair MP does spend quite a bit of time moaning about the lack of basic belaying skillz which will probably kill you anyways ...

;)

Actually, I'm suffering from a dearth of people to argue with---but arguing isn't what I'm interested in either. I'd like to understand what's going on with the lanyards and daisy's. I find it quite interesting that a daisy clipped end-to-end blows out its pockets even though none of them are loaded, for example. And I'm continually surprised that some technical people state as facts things that aren't consequences of anything they've done and may not even be detectable by the experiments they've performed.

Will any of this be of any "practical" use for climbers? Frankly, I don't care. I'd just like to understand how things work.

rgold wrote:Actually, I'm suffering from a dearth of people to argue with---but arguing isn't what I'm interested in either. I'd like to understand what's going on with the lanyards and daisy's. I find it quite interesting that a daisy clipped end-to-end blows out its pockets even though none of them are loaded, for example. And I'm continually surprised that some technical people state as facts things that aren't consequences of anything they've done and may not even be detectable by the experiments they've performed. Will any of this be of any "practical" use for climbers? Frankly, I don't care. I'd just like to understand how things work.

Now there's a reasonable answer. I can appreciate the curiosity as opposed to some who pontificate in spite of not really knowing. For me, a person of small mind, knowing what's worked for years is enough. But it's still amusing to see how serious some people take themselves.

Bahh ... Wait till you have folks come up to you at the crag and scream that daisy chains arent safe ... Of folks whine that dyneema will kill u when yr at a belay station

MP is pretty mild

As to how "seriously" folks take these things .... Theres been the DMM vids, the ENSA tests, the federation de quebec des montagnes, the rigging for rescue tests, and many others

And thats for climbing and caving alone .... Never mind workplace safety standards

The climbing world sure does study it alot

Likely to sell the latest fanciest tethers at premium prices

Now how about em deadly grigris

;)

In the 'arguing' some seek to better understand the behavior and limits of the safety systems we create when climbing.

Most climbers I encounter would have little interest in this, they are happy operating on some minimal combination of dogma, experience of what hasn't killed them yet and what they've seen people they trust doing. This undeniably works, very few people die.
They wouldn't typically involve themselves in threads like this, or spend much if any time trying to understand the implications of drop tests, or material properties. They don't much care, they have their set of skills that's worked to keep them off the deck this long, and will probably keep working.

Then there's a small minority, perhaps having a background in engineering or a hard science - who seem to talk endlessly about every single detail. To most climbers this looks like a colossal waste of time. But to this minority, the discourse leads to better understanding. From this understanding new ideas can be formed, and existing ideas judged. Once one is equipped with sufficient understanding, dogma can be discarded and new and interesting approaches can be investigated. Why the focus on every single detail? Because when doing something new or different, any oversight could prove fatal, and often by understanding some details sheds light on other details.

The main difficulty I often think we run into (not neccessary in this case, I've only skimmed the thread) on forums is two fold:
- A mix of the above two groups, and a lack of respect at times between them
- A lack of non-anecdotal data (which is problematic for the second group, who will be inherently data driven)

Jim Turner wrote: "intuitively" I don't think that word means what you think it means. And by your logic, you never had any business climbing. Otherwise, you would never had put you self in the position of falling on a static leash. TWICE

I didn't say I fell on a leash, I said I fell on a route - i.e. climbing with a rope. A short [climbing] fall just out from the anchor should be enough to convince anyone that falling on a leash is a really bad idea.

frank minunni wrote:Don't you people ever get tired of this shit? I've been pretty amused at watching this simple thing go on and on and wondering when it will stop.

Some of us are very cheap dates, Frank.

bearbreeder wrote:Bahh ... Wait till you have folks come up to you at the crag and scream that daisy chains arent safe ... Of folks whine that dyneema will kill u when yr at a belay station.)

I want to say, for the record, that this particular member of the old folks tribe has never screamed at anyone about the daisy's they are using; never uttered so much as a peep mind you, and has never whined to anyone on a belay stance anywhere that their dyneema connection will kill them.

For one thing, as I said earlier, the chances of a catastrophe don't seem very big to me, testing notwithstanding. And for another thing, I deeply believe that climbers make choices---it is their responsibility alone to make informed choices---and then they have to live or die by them. So I just plain don't care how you've chosen to connect yourself to the anchors. I trust you've thought it through and have made peace with whatever trade-offs you embraced.

This doesn't mean I'm not interested in discussing the underlying issues with climbers who have already indicated their interest in the subject. That's a different matter entirely.

oh its not the retirement home folks who are the ones "policing" the crag of the deadly daisies and dyneema ... those old geezahs r so bored that a bit of gory entertainment always gets them perked up before their afternoon nap

its the yung ones fresh from their top rope anchors course and who are "leading" big groups who always feel the need to exclaim loudly how unsafe others are

weve all seen it at the popular crags .. folks telling you how "unsafe" you are and how yr going to die if you dont do everything exactly the "ACMG (AMGA) way"

;)

rgold wrote:I'd like to understand what's going on with the lanyards and daisy's. I find it quite interesting that a daisy clipped end-to-end blows out its pockets even though none of them are loaded, for example.

\
Is this real curiosity? The pockets are loaded even when the daisy is clipped end to end. The nearest pocket to the ends get loaded to approximately half the load. Progressive stitch ripping provides the much needed energy absorption.

bearbreeder wrote:Of folks whine that dyneema will kill u when yr at a belay station

I had some British folks laugh at my nylon sling that I use as a tether. They asked me did I get in from the 80s? And these guys weren't young either!

Personally for durability, knottability and stretchability I like a nice fat nylon slings as my standard tether. However if for whatever reason I have to use a skinny dyneema sling I will. PAS and daisies are a waste of space.

Multipitch trad, I'm generally using my rope only for the anchor and my safety. No slings or cords needed.

patto wrote:The pockets are loaded even when the daisy is clipped end to end. The nearest pocket to the ends get loaded to approximately half the load. Progressive stitch ripping provides the much needed energy absorption.

What I thought is that when the daisy is clipped end-to-end, you basically have two strands with sewn loops at each end. But the end loops are formed so that one of the strands is longer than the other and is periodically tacked back to the shorter strand to make pockets. When loaded end-to-end, the shorter strand gets all the load until it has stretched enough to involve the longer strand.

It seems from the ENSA video posted by BB that the tacks blow when the two strands are about the same length (at which point, if I've understood it correctly, the strands themselves have substantially different tensions). The strands are not being pulled apart at this point as they would be if the load was applied to any single pocket. The tacks seem to blow as a result of the stretching of the material or perhaps the differential stretching of the materials.

As for "much-needed energy absorbtion", the forces acting on the tacks only act for very short distances, so I'm finding it hard to see how much work is being done. In the case of ripping pockets (which is very different from the end-to-end loading I described), I argued earlier in this thread that the extra distance fallen from ripping the pockets would likely neutralize or even exceed any energy-absorbing effects of pocket destruction.

patto wrote: I had some British folks laugh at my nylon sling that I use as a tether. They asked me did I get in from the 80s? And these guys weren't young either! .

Nylon slings can be hard to find in the UK and the rest of Europe.

Really? All the European manufacturers make them and all the online shops I use stock them.

rgold wrote: What I thought is that when the daisy is clipped end-to-end, you basically have two strands with sewn loops at each end.

Yes. Except those loops aren't rated at 22kN or whatever... The bartacked pocket rated for ~3kN means that the loop would likely fail at 6kN. This can be seen in the video.

rgold wrote:When loaded end-to-end, the shorter strand gets all the load until it has stretched enough to involve the longer strand.

Incorrect. The neither nylon or dyneema will stretch that much. Have a look at the video. You can see that it all in slow motion at high resolution. The bartacks pop progressively from bottom to top. The "stretching" that is seen is actually mostly the slack from the daisy chain loops.

rgold wrote:The tacks seem to blow as a result of the stretching of the material or perhaps the differential stretching of the materials.

As above. That is not the mechanism that is occurring.

rgold wrote:As for "much-needed energy absorbtion", the forces acting on the tacks only act for very short distances, so I'm finding it hard to see how much work is being done.

I agree. I don't see a whole lot of work being done. However it is clear that enough work is being done to enable it to survive a factor one. Also the slip friction around the carabiner as a result of the extension would not be insignificant at those loads. (Surviving a factor one isn't that amazing, it still succumbs to a factor two)

rgold wrote:In the case of ripping pockets (which is very different from the end-to-end loading I described), I argued earlier in this thread that the extra distance fallen from ripping the pockets would likely neutralize or even exceed any energy-absorbing effects of pocket destruction.

Still a factor 1. Total distance fallen equal total length of sling pockets ripped or no pockets ripped.

Re nylon slings

Jim Titt wrote:Really? All the European manufacturers make them and all the online shops I use stock them.

True, but in the climbing shops near me and places I visit in Europe it seems very dyneema dominated. My local store has no nylon at all. And nylon daisies are very hard to find in-store. On line no problem. Most people I climb with in the UK don't seem to use nylon.

bearbreeder wrote:heres one situation a PAS with fully rated loops is "safer" ... in this case yr tether would need to support the weight of 3 climbers =P My friends were at the pitch two belay station of a three-pitch route at Red Rock. As they prepared to begin the last pitch, a guy arrived at the anchor from below. He said, "I just ran my gear out 60 feet. Mind if I clip into your PAS?" Without waiting for an answer, he clipped directly into my friend's PAS. Not the anchor. Not a bolt. Her PAS. She was too shocked to speak, but her partner quickly told him to get on the anchor instead. The guy didn't understand why she practically had smoke coming out of her ears as she said it. It made for an awkward belay, to say the least. climbing.com/news/unbelayva… thats one way to make sure that hawtay (guy or girl) doesnt run away from you !!! ive said it before, PASes are being used as a substitute for basic skills or common sense ;)

That made me laugh. I guess Red Rocks isn't France. I've had guides use my protection / remove my protection / clip into my belay loop / eat my food / rap my ropes. Sounds like these people need to chill.

On my first alpine route we were near the top of Jungfrau (next to the Eiger). I had just got to the top of an easy snow/ice pitch and was about to belay my second up using a boot/axe belay as there was nothing else around. It was the first time I'd used the technique - and had only seen it in a book the day before (the insanity of youth). Just as I'm shouting "climb" a guy appears from above me moving very fast and asks if he can use my rope, I say yes, not having any idea what he wants it for. He throws it around his body, classic abseil style, and jumps off the mountain and raps off my boot. I almost shat myself.

David Coley wrote: That made me laugh. I guess Red Rocks isn't France. I've had guides use my protection / remove my protection / clip into my belay loop / eat my food / rap my ropes. Sounds like these people need to chill. On my first alpine route we were near the top of Jungfrau (next to the Eiger). I had just got to the top of an easy snow/ice pitch and was about to belay my second up using a boot/axe belay as there was nothing else around. It was the first time I'd used the technique - and had only seen it in a book the day before (the insanity of youth). Just as I'm shouting "climb" a guy appears from above me moving very fast and asks if he can use my rope, I say yes, not having any idea what he wants it for. He throws it around his body, classic abseil style, and jumps off the mountain and raps off my boot. I almost shat myself.

On person i climbed with in squamish hates euro bums and their barging ways so much that he carries a knife on his harness

When a eurobum tries to barge on him he tells them

"I CUT YR ROPE" !!!!

Im not quite sures hes not serious

;)

Only people i have seen use nylon are gym climbers who have been scared shitless by the DMM nylon vs dyneema tests.