Krukonogi Picks

Hi Fellow Climbers,

First, if this topic has been previously discussed on this site I apologize for missing the discussion. I hope no one will hold that against me as I ask a few questions.
I climb on Second Generation BD Cobras using the "B" stamped Laser Pick. I am happy with the set up--it has served me well. Recently I bought some new "B" picks to replace my existing ones--just worn down a bit too much from too many years of use. Despite being happy and after purchasing and mounting the new "B" picks (tuned up first with some home filing), I decided to check around to see what the options are. I ran across a Russian website for the Krukonogi pick. The pictures and descriptions of the pick look interesting--interesting enough that I might be willing to buy a pair and see what the effect is on ice ax performance. The website says these picks are compatible with the BD Cobra, and the price, even allowing for shipping and handling is reasonably close to what a BD replacement pick costs--so those are not issues. Here are my questions and am interested to hear about other peoples' experiences:
1. Has anyone climbed on these picks and if so what has been your overall impression?
2. How is this Russian company to deal with? Good at order fulfillment? Timely delivery? Credit Card fraud issues, etc.?
3. Must one order from the Russian company or are there any EU, Canadian, or US distributors? If so, what are the distributors' names? Customer experience from those distributors?
4. The Krukonogi pick is made from Armor Steel, but not "strengthened" (taken from the website's technical specifications). BD uses a ChromMoly alloy. Somewhat through the rumor mill of climbing I have heard (without good source attribution) that the Krukonogi pick lasts longer since the steel is harder. Is that true? Is this harder steel prone to increased change of breaking? Durability is one issue, but a related issue is how "sticky" is this steel and tooth configuration at clearing the ice? I.e., is this pick a bear to clear out of an ice placement? How easily does this steel penetrate the ice(likely more a function of pick geometry but still worth asking)?
5. Are there other US/Canadian/EU manufacturers producing picks comparable to the Krukonogi or better? If so, who are they and what has been peoples' experiences?
6. Any other relevant data/observations/experiences worth sharing but I have not asked?
Sometimes it is worth experimenting with or otherwise changing up a practice or in this case pick choice just to see what comes of it. In my mind, though I am satisfied with the BD Laser Pick, it may well be a fun and informative experiment to try these different picks and field test the result. From the looks of the pick on the website it would almost be like climbing on a wholly different tool--which in itself might be good--i.e., with a fairly straightforward pick change one increases the versatility of one's tool.
Thanks in advance for any helpful information anyone is willing to share.

Cheers,
Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

SpokaneBob wrote: 1. Has anyone climbed on these picks and if so what has been your overall impression?

Yes, Great picks HOWEVER, they have as extreamly agressive pick angle, they do not climb ice as well as the "stock Picks" (nomics for me). the The Krukongi picks dry tool like a beast!

SpokaneBob wrote:2. How is this Russian company to deal with? Good at order fulfillment? Timely delivery? Credit Card fraud issues, etc.?

Just fine, I ordered directly, paypal has a currency converter.

SpokaneBob wrote: 4. The Krukonogi pick is made from Armor Steel, but not "strengthened" (taken from the website's technical specifications). BD uses a ChromMoly alloy. Somewhat through the rumor mill of climbing I have heard (without good source attribution) that the Krukonogi pick lasts longer since the steel is harder. Is that true?

Depends on what you are climbing. If you are pulling plastic the picks are awesome and last reasonable time. However on real rock the steel is so hard that the pick tips chip when in contact with rock. I trashed my set of picks on a weekend of M7-8 climbing. Stien pulles were the worst for chipping the tips off.

SpokaneBob wrote: how "sticky" is this steel and tooth configuration at clearing the ice? I.e., is this pick a bear to clear out of an ice placement? How easily does this steel penetrate the ice(likely more a function of pick geometry but still worth asking)?

Due to the super steep pick angle it is harder (or at least a differnt swing style is needed. I had to addopt a swing and a hard elbow drop) to get a good stick. When it sticks I find that the picks can be a pain to pull out of the ice.

This is my experience only so take that as IMHO, others may have something completly differnt to say.

Jeff.

Your review seems contradictory. They "dry tool like a beast" but "the pick tips chip when in contact with rock"? Picks chipping doesn't seem beastly to me. Can you clarify?

alpinejason wrote:Jeff. Your review seems contradictory. They "dry tool like a beast" but "the pick tips chip when in contact with rock"? Picks chipping doesn't seem beastly to me. Can you clarify?

The pick angle is much steeper than the "stock" pick, so it allows the tool to really bite down well on thin dime edges. It is incredibly stable on thin edges.
on a comp route with plastic/resin holds that are relatively soft the picks are superb.
But the Andesite rock that I climb on is incredibly hard. when steel is tempered is will be very hard but will adopt a glass like properity; when in contact to a like hard surface the steel can chip instead of bending (or in most cases of dry tooling the tip mushrooms).
As long as the climbing surface is softer than the pick you will be fine.

Hi Jeff & AlpineJason,

Thanks. Your information is really helpful to me and I appreciate the generosity. I did not state it in my initial email (and concede that I should have to help people replying) but I do not dry tool much. Mostly I am a traditional alpine and technical ice climber. So it sounds like this pick's geometry might be a detriment. I have used steeply dropped tools, and it is a bit of an un-natural swing, more of a hatchet chop than a swing. I do find tools that swing that way tend to be a bear to clear from the placement. But I have not yet given up on the idea of buying a pair of these picks--I am interested in other viewpoints and experiences.

Cheers,

Bob Loomis

Bob.

Thread drift... have you tried the Titan pick?

Jeff.

How about torquing? Stiffer than your stock picks?

Hi Dana,

I am hoping you see this reply from me. Well, call me dense or I otherwise confess to being dense. It appears you send me information about this Russian pick, which is super helpful, and if I am reading it right I am to reply to you on this site via a "contact user" function. I have searched this site for that function and cannot find it--likely right under my nose and I am just blind to it. :-) You mention you are in Spokane as well, so I wanted to reach out and make contact. Perhaps we could meet and climb. Your reply makes it sound like you know what you are talking about. So, if you want to email me so we can set up a dialogue, and perhaps get together to climb some ice you can email me at > loomis@rescue.com <.

Cheers,

Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi AlpineJason,

Yes, I have used and still use the BD "T" or Titan pick. Due to the 1mm wider cross-section it is more durable, and at least for me the ability to clear the tool placement is only a little bit harder than with the "B" pick. But on sustained, steep vertical or funky ice (harder than 4s) every little bit helps to save energy and keep going so I use the "B" picks. There is some teeth differences in the two picks but I find that inconsequential. I might be missing some other salient differences between the two, and if I am, I am happy to be educated.

Cheers,

Bob

I have a lot of blades form them for diffrent tools even have a pair of their new tools, yes tools! that im testing out and they rock! . That said, they are a great compagny and everythig is smooth and safe with them. They are only in Russia but the service is great ( if you have any problems with them drop me a line i can contact the owner directly.) So as far as their blades go, its pretty simple... the armored steel is the strongest blades i have ever seen, a full-on swing in Granit will dent the rock and not the pic! seriously! this is great but it has its dark side, aka you just can`t fill the blades, it destroys the file haha.

Theriault wrote: the armored steel is the strongest blades i have ever seen, a full-on swing in Granit will dent the rock and not the pic! seriously!

I wouldn't have believed it until I experienced the same thing. I love amour plate. ;-)

Kruk uses 2 alloys, one is the armor plate and the other is CrMo [I think].

It has been said before but the armour steel is pretty easy to work with a grinder. I purchased two pairs of the points as replacements for my Lynx points, as they were cheaper than petzl at the time. 5 min on a grinder and I was able to camfer the points to a pretty good edge. I assume you could do the same with the picks if you were so inclined.

Theriault wrote: Ice = no good, blades are to wide and almost impossible to modify.

Is it just the fact that the steel is hard to work, or is there a more fundamental geometry issue? I've been considering getting a pair of them for mixed climbing and regrinding them to function well on rock and ice. I have plenty of experience working with high-alloy steel, so I'm not worried about material removal, just whether it's possible to get an ice climbing geometry out of a Krukonogi pick.

Dobson wrote: Is it just the fact that the steel is hard to work, or is there a more fundamental geometry issue? I have plenty of experience working with high-alloy steel, so I'm not worried about material removal, just whether it's possible to get an ice climbing geometry out of a Krukonogi pick.

Yes I believe you could make em work very well if you can thin them out!

Theriault wrote: Yes I believe you could make em work very well if you can thin them out!

Thanks very much! Time to order some picks and some aggressive, cool-running grinding belts.

Dobson wrote: Thanks very much! Time to order some picks and some aggressive, cool-running grinding belts.

good call! keep me posted on how it works out!!!

To be specific, I used a bench grinder.

Xam wrote:To be specific, I used a bench grinder.

I have a really nice variable-speed knifemaking grinder. Compared to super wear resistant steels like the CPM10V that I use in workhorse knives, climbing picks are usually pretty pleasant to work on. I'll be sure to post up photos.

dont they make picks for different applications some aggressive angle some standard and some picks for mixed some for ice....right

Brandonian wrote:dont they make picks for different applications some aggressive angle some standard and some picks for mixed some for ice....right

I was under this impression aswell

Zac.St.Jules wrote: I was under this impression aswell

same here, got some and no.... no good for ice... just WAY to thick! Zac, I have a set of "Ice" blades for the Master`s if ya wanna try em, Ill be in your area 13-16 feb ish .

Ask Rocknice2, he got a pair of ice specific picks, they might have been custom.