New Alpinism

I'm traveling so I don't have the book to look at, but if I recall correctly in the transition phase your long workout was suppose to be 50% of total Z1 and the rest spread out over 3-4 other workouts. If that's the case you will have one hour long workout followed by a few 15-20 minute workout. I just don't see anyone getting a benefit from that unless they are grossly out of shape, which you obviously aren't by scoring well in all the other categories.

I could be completely wrong and seeing as I haven't taken the test as I know I'd fail all categories I probably am.

Ha no worries Coastie!

Yeah the book still confuses me, and seemingly contradicts itself at times. But in general I am using it as a template but am not following it exactly.

I think if I do the math, excluding my gym climbing time, I will be doing at least 50% of my training in the Z1 (maybe Z2) range, and the rest be will the weights workout.

As for having separate 15-20minute workouts, I just don't feel like I can get much from such a short workout, so things are lumped into larger workouts. Towards the end of the plan, the number of workouts will grow as the total workout time needs to grow, and I start to incorporate running (one thing I have not done for the past few years at all).

All in all, I feel like I have a reasonable start. Just talking about it with others help me understand it a bit more! So thanks!

Your hours seems quite low to me as well. I don't have the book in front of me, but pulled up a page of the transition period hours online

patagoniabooks.uberflip.com…

So the first 3 weeks of transition there's no increase in hours, then a 10% increase for weeks 4-5. From there it ranges from 10% to as high as 25%, depending on the week. So your training could look like this:

Transition:
Week 1-3: 165 minutes (doing this in minutes as it's easier to multiply)
Week 4: 181 minutes
Week 5: 199
Week 6: 209
Week 7: 104 (drop in week 7 as you're only doing 7 week transition)

Base:

Week 8: 229
Week 9: 253
Week 10: 278
Week 11: 208
Week 12: 278
Week 13: 278
Week 14: 347
Week 15: 173

Week 16: 347
Week 17: 364
Week 18: 382
Week 19: 191
Week 20: 382
Week 21: 382
Week 22: 459
Week 23: 229

So by week 22, you should be doing about 7.65 hours of training per week at a minimum (I used the lowest increase of training time/week the book suggests, some weeks can be up to 25% instead of 10%).

Of course these are just guidelines the book suggests, but to me, I couldn't picture only doing 5.5 hours of training per week to do a 12000' grade VI traverse.

Thanks for replies!

Hmmm. Ok. I guess mostly it is organized this way because I probably cannot really fit anymore hours into the week.

So let's see. I started with half of last year's average training hours (calculated conservatively). Which was 2.75hrs.

And since there was no way I could fit the gym climbing in I wanted to do, I simply cut that from the calculation (though I am still doing the climbing - just not using it in the calculation).

If I add it back in, then my total training hours per week on the new plan would start at 6.75hrs and end at 9.5hrs, with my gym climbing hovering around 4hrs.

Including those am I still low you think?

I feel like I made a solid attempt (85% in 27hrs) last year with an average of 5.5hrs training, no real cardio, and a handful of extra long days training before hand. The long day training will also happen this year but is not included in the calculation.

So this plan would *almost* double that by the time I finish the training regimen.

I dunno, maybe I'm still low-balling it?

For reference, what kinda hours per week have people used on average for what kind of climbs?

What was it that held you back from finishing the route last time? Was it your aerobic fitness, muscular endurance, technical ability? Figure out where your weakness is, and train that would be my advice. It sounds like you probably have the technical ability, so just doing enough to maintain your climbing ability while working on your weaknesses should give you the best results.

Markuso wrote:What was it that held you back from finishing the route last time? Was it your aerobic fitness, muscular endurance, technical ability? Figure out where your weakness is, and train that would be my advice. It sounds like you probably have the technical ability, so just doing enough to maintain your climbing ability while working on your weaknesses should give you the best results.

Always hard for me to tell on things like that. I mean at some point, my body just kinda stops functioning very well after climbing so long at altitude, and made the call to come down.

Probably a combo of aerobic and endurance. I feel fine on the terrain technically until the end of it when I don't function so well.

Though it's never that simple really. Managing water and food intake is sometimes challenging for me at altitude, which if that happens, degrades all of those other aspects.

So in my head I am thinking that if I boost my endurance and aerobic fitness that the other aspects will be taxed less. Hence my thought to start this training.

As hard as it is to do, I'd say you probably need to cut back on the climbing and use some of that time for cardio. Nobody wants to do it but the book says that will give you the most gains. And especially agree with the information you've provided.

climbing coastie wrote:As hard as it is to do, I'd say you probably need to cut back on the climbing and use some of that time for cardio. Nobody wants to do it but the book says that will give you the most gains. And especially agree with the information you've provided.

Thanks for that thought. After talking about it, I do agree. The 4 hrs in the gym is actually already cut back from last year's gym time. I was considering cutting back more but couldn't force my hand to write that down! It's nice to hear, from someone else, what is in the back of my head nagging at me!

I'm new to mountaineering, but my previous athletic life was in combat sports/fighting and powerlifting. I'm a little confused by all the talk of time spent on max strength training. The time you spend doing that is irrelevant. After a warm up with resistance at a fraction of your max, you then want to build up to max effort sets of 2-3 reps, for no more 3 sets. The actual amount of time you spend working may total 5 minutes. The rest is recovery between sets. If you're measuring your max strength workout by time, you're almost certainly doing it wrong.

I'll also add that max strength is very much like aerobic fitness in that it takes years to build, and doesn't fade fast once you get it. With years of max strength training under my belt, I can now pistol squat with ease and shoulder a 200lb sandbag for multiple reps of ass to grass squats. Imho, all mountain athletes should train max strength year round. You can make gains with just one session per week. As with aerobic fitness, just be patient and measure your progress in months /years, not weeks.

Tamer Farag wrote:I'm new to mountaineering, but my previous athletic life was in combat sports/fighting and powerlifting. I'm a little confused by all the talk of time spent on max strength training. The time you spend doing that is irrelevant. After a warm up with resistance at a fraction of your max, you then want to build up to max effort sets of 2-3 reps, for no more 3 sets. The actual amount of time you spend working may total 5 minutes. The rest is recovery between sets. If you're measuring your max strength workout by time, you're almost certainly doing it wrong. I'll also add that max strength is very much like aerobic fitness in that it takes years to build, and doesn't fade fast once you get it. With years of max strength training under my belt, I can now pistol squat with ease and shoulder a 200lb sandbag for multiple reps of ass to grass squats. Imho, all mountain athletes should train max strength year round. You can make gains with just one session per week. As with aerobic fitness, just be patient and measure your progress in months /years, not weeks.

I dont think the point was to measure the strength workouts in time, rather that's an approximation of how long it should take you to complete the strength training workouts. I know when I was doing my max strength phase last year, with a proper warmup, then doing 4 exercises (squats, box step-ups, pullups and dips) for 4 sets with reps between 2-5, then a cool-down as the book suggests, my workouts were taking between 1.5-2 hours.

Thanks Markuso and Climbing Coastie for all the feedback! Based on the discussion, I have taken an hour out of the gym climbing in my plan, and swapped it to cardio.

Hard thing to voluntarily do, but yes I think it will be beneficial for the goal climb. It will be interesting to see how my rock climbing ability will or won't change.

Markuso wrote:I know when I was doing my max strength phase last year, with a proper warmup, then doing 4 exercises (squats, box step-ups, pullups and dips) for 4 sets with reps between 2-5, then a cool-down as the book suggests, my workouts were taking between 1.5-2 hours.

How long is your warmup and cooldown? That seems like a VERY long time to do 4 exercises.

Kyle Tarry wrote: How long is your warmup and cooldown? That seems like a VERY long time to do 4 exercises.

10 minutes on the bike, 5 minutes on the rowing machine for warmup. If I'm able to alternate exercises between sets (doing my pullups while resting after squats), I can usually get it done a little quicker. If not, it's generally around 15-20 minutes per exercise. Then I'll finish off with 2-3 sets of hanging leg raises and one other core exercise, then stretch for 10-15 minutes.

I highly recommend gymnastics rings-based training for maximal strength. A well-developed rings routine will address strength, flexibility and core strength as an integral part of the program. You will not have to spend extra time working on core. Combine that with squats or similar for lower body and you will be able to get everything done in a minimal amount of time.

The downside is that rings are a skill that you need to learn, but the investment in time is worth it.

Tamer Farag wrote:I'm new to mountaineering, but my previous athletic life was in combat sports/fighting and powerlifting. I'm a little confused by all the talk of time spent on max strength training. The time you spend doing that is irrelevant..../years, not weeks.

The time is relevant as a proxy for tracking your total training effort. You are correct it is irrelevant to the training itself if we are talking total time (not set and exercise rest times, which have an impact on training).

Markuso wrote: 10 minutes on the bike, 5 minutes on the rowing machine for warmup. If I'm able to alternate exercises between sets (doing my pullups while resting after squats), I can usually get it done a little quicker. If not, it's generally around 15-20 minutes per exercise. Then I'll finish off with 2-3 sets of hanging leg raises and one other core exercise, then stretch for 10-15 minutes.

If that works for you, it's all good. I get what (I think) is a similar amount of stuff done in much less time by nesting multiple exercise into a set (supersets or circuit style). For example, I paid some attention to the clock this morning and did:

15 minutes warmup (row and run)
Deadlift and Pullups (3 sets of each, 30 seconds max rest between sets, alternating) (<10 minutes)
Squats and Press (same) (<10 minutes)
Kettlebell & core (< 10 minutes)
Cooldown stretch (5-10 minutes)

It was about 45 minutes all together.

If you are taking 15-20 minutes for one exercise, and doing 4 sets, you are taking a LOT of rest between sets. That's 5+ minutes of rest between sets. Sitting on a weight bench for 80% of your workout time seems really unproductive to me.

Kyle Tarry wrote: If that works for you, it's all good. I get what (I think) is a similar amount of stuff done in much less time by nesting multiple exercise into a set (supersets or circuit style). For example, I paid some attention to the clock this morning and did: 15 minutes warmup (row and run) Deadlift and Pullups (3 sets of each, 30 seconds max rest between sets, alternating) (<10 minutes) Squats and Press (same) (<10 minutes) Kettlebell & core (< 10 minutes) Cooldown stretch (5-10 minutes) It was about 45 minutes all together. If you are taking 15-20 minutes for one exercise, and doing 4 sets, you are taking a LOT of rest between sets. That's 5+ minutes of rest between sets. Sitting on a weight bench for 80% of your workout time seems really unproductive to me.

Basically what you describe does not seem like a max strength workout to me, which is what it sounds like Markuso is talking about. Circuits are not max strength, and my understanding is that the two different exercise styles target different things - one builds muscle fiber (max strength), one recruits it (circuits, endurance).

Looking straight from the book, their recommendations are in line with Markuso's; 4-6 sets with 3-5 minutes rest in between. Doing the math on that shows a range of 12 minutes to 30 minutes for one exercise.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

"Circuit" was probably not the right word choice on my part, superset is more appropriate. Supersets are very common with weightlifters, so it's hard to argue against them being effective for max strength. Doing (for example) some pull-ups while your legs recover between squats has no real downside, in my eyes (and cuts your workout time in half).

Kyle Tarry wrote:Agree to disagree, I guess. "Circuit" was probably not the right word choice on my part, superset is more appropriate. Supersets are very common with weightlifters, so it's hard to argue against them being effective for max strength. Doing (for example) some pull-ups while your legs recover between squats has no real downside, in my eyes (and cuts your workout time in half).

I try to do some upper body between rests on lower body, but my gym has the dip bar pretty far away from the other leg equipment. Squats and pull-ups I can usually mix though.

Kyle Tarry wrote:Agree to disagree, I guess. "Circuit" was probably not the right word choice on my part, superset is more appropriate. Supersets are very common with weightlifters, so it's hard to argue against them being effective for max strength. Doing (for example) some pull-ups while your legs recover between squats has no real downside, in my eyes (and cuts your workout time in half).

You're right that supersets can be effective for max strength. I just got the feeling that the rep and weight structure you were implying was more "circuit" based than "max strength." Merely an assumption on my part based on your mention of "3 sets" and "circuit".

The important distinction between MS and ME, in my mind, is that for MS you would have more sets with more weight and less reps (the book suggests 4-6 sets and less than 5 reps, this also appears to be the weightlifting crowd's opinion), while ME is typically longer duration and less weight (the book talks about circuits here, and weighted hill climbs).