Red Rock Fatality?

Thanks - got it. That distance is consistent with Doug Foust's above report of the fall being 80 feet as well as one or two news reports.

The fall distances in the other reports probably originated from a single source - realizing you are just reporting the distance from the threaded anchor to the scene.

Perhaps that other source has information indicating the fall started around the threaded anchor, other information besides just the fact that the threaded anchors was that far above the end of Brian's fall.

Gavin: Another question - my fuzzy recollection was that the threaded anchor is pretty obvious to spot from above while rapping down ... perhaps tucked a little off to skier's right but still relatively easy to spot. Is that supported by your much fresher memories?

Anyone: Do the rap-anchor markings on the below photo appear roughly accurate? Following the link and opening the full-size photo might be needed to see the markings.

My $0.02, which is all speculation. There was quite a bit of blood today halfway down the gully. This is directly below the rap station next to the big boulder at the top of Johnny Vegas. This rap station has an oversized rap ring (like 3"), so if someone were to do a biner block here I could see it pulling through. Hopefully more details will follow.

sqwirll commented that the accident evidence was "directly below the rap station next to the big boulder at the top of Johnny Vegas." Is that rap station the anchor at the top of P3 of Johny Vegas?

Eric Orloski wrote:... climbed up Johnny Vegas (5.7) then bailed after reaching the base of solar slab. They decided to descend Solar Gully. Brian fixed a single strand so both women could get to the ground in one rap. It is unclear as to why the rappel failed when Brian started to rap down. ....

The above word "bailed" plus sqwirll's comment has me wondering if they actually started their raps into the gully from the top of P3 of Johnny Vegas - I have no idea if this is really even practical and, if not, perhaps it is related to the accident? (edit to add: discussion down thread indicates it is unlikely Brian's crew started rapping from the P3 anchor of Johny Vegas.)

On the other hand, "after reaching the base of solar slab" implies they climbed to the top of P4 of Johny Vegas and then scrambled to the anchors on the other side of Solar Slab Gully. And yet I've wondered about the lack of mentioning the first relatively trivial rap into the big chimney at the top of Solar Slab Gully.

Also, from the MP description of Johnny Vegas: "Rappel from the top of p3 with two ropes (or if you only have one rope, head down Solar Slab Gully)."

Could that have been interpreted as meaning at the top of P3 of Johnny Vegas it is ...

a) one double-rope rap to the ground
or
b) a single rope rap into Solar Slab Gully from which there will be one more rap

?

A plethora of past comments by others on the Johny Vegas page seem to indicate that rapping from anchors on that route means rapping the entire route to the ground and not rapping into Solar Slab Gully.

Has anyone tried rapping into the gully from the top of P3 of Johnny Vegas with one 60m rope? If this is NOT practical, the above sentence from MP's Johny Vegas description should be clarified.

Bill Lawry wrote:sqwirll commented that the accident evidence was "directly below the rap station next to the big boulder at the top of Johnny Vegas." Is that rap station the anchor at the top of P3 of Johny Vegas?

No, when you top out of Johnny Vegas there's a big boulder on the right shoulder. It's about 100' of 3rd class below the start of Solar Slab proper. Next to this boulder is an anchor that you can rap off into SS Gully proper. I think you need 2 ropes for this, but I'm not 100%.

I'm not sure if this is even the anchor they used, but it does seem to line up with what I saw.

sqwirll wrote: No, when you top out of Johnny Vegas there's a big boulder on the right shoulder. It's about 100' of 3rd class below the start of Solar Slab proper. Next to this boulder is an anchor that you can rap off into SS Gully proper. I think you need 2 ropes for this, but I'm not 100%. I'm not sure if this is even the anchor they used, but it does seem to line up with what I saw.

Thank you. I appreciate the information.

The anchor you point out with its' access into SS Gully also mostly fits the narrative we have so far (except for the part about reaching the ground) ... then bailed after reaching the base of solar slab. They decided to descend Solar Gully. Brian fixed a single strand so both women could get to the ground in one rap.

I've been wondering if this is taken from the end of someone's double-rope rap off of some Johny Vegas anchor - perhaps the one you mention. ... and if the photographer is standing at Brian's final resting place.

sqwirll wrote:My $0.02, which is all speculation. There was quite a bit of blood today halfway down the gully. This is directly below the rap station next to the big boulder at the top of Johnny Vegas. This rap station has an oversized rap ring (like 3"), so if someone were to do a biner block here I could see it pulling through. Hopefully more details will follow.

This is all very sad

However a biner block setup properly should not fail

If one forgets to lock the biner all bets are off

We might never know what happened

Condolences to friends and family of the victim. Very sad.

Friends and I rapped the Solar Slab Gully from the anchor by the boulder atop Johnny Vegas the day after this accident. I do not know if our experience rapping this line will help but feel I should post about it. Two friends rapped with us, all using one 70 meter rope and piggy backing another to sometimes set up continuous rappels. It was our first time rapping from this anchor by the boulder, as all previous times we rapped the Solar Slab Gully from the terrace at the base of Solar Slab. We made it to the first rappel anchor located above the ledge where Brian had fallen. I am not certain what the distance is between this anchor and that ledge directly below but would guess roughly 80'.

There was plenty of rope left to make it to this first rap anchor from the terrace with our one 70 m, but it was a little work to get to the anchor which seemed a little far to climber's right from our line of rappel. For example, when I was level with this anchor and hanging mid air, I didn't have much of anything to push off of to swing over to the anchor. My friend who was already anchored, reached for my outstretched leg grabbing my foot to help pull me in. Next my leg and then harness were grabbed until finally clipping the anchor.

I was under the impression that all 4 of us had some sort of rigamarole like this to go through in order to clip this anchor, and at least one of us overshot it and had to scramble up to it while batmaning. These things happen from time to time, but can add to potential for disaster. I do not like to imagine this sort of trouble using a 60 m rope there.

Maybe a similar difficulty played a part in this accident, maybe not. I did a quick search on Google to see if there were any other reports of trouble here and found some mention but no specifics.

It seems it would be good if this anchor point were be to be looked at more closely for possible alteration so that it would be better for both rappel points from the top of Johnny Vegas as well as from the base of Solar Slab.

I am so very sorry to friends and family for your loss.

seuss wrote:Friends and I rapped the Solar Slab Gully from the anchor by the boulder atop Johnny Vegas the day after this accident ... using one 70 meter rope ... There was plenty of rope left to make it to this first rap anchor from the terrace with our one 70 m, but it was a little work to get to the anchor which seemed a little far to climber's right from our line of rappel.... My friend who was already anchored, reached for my outstretched leg grabbing my foot to help pull me in. Next my leg and then harness were grabbed until finally clipping the anchor. I was under the impression that all 4 of us had some sort of rigamarole like this to go through in order to clip this anchor, and at least one of us overshot it and had to scramble up to it while batmaning. These things happen from time to time, ....

I totally agree that a climber needs to be able to deal with things like this from time to time (for example: identify the need to ascend a rap rope). I agree that it goes with the territory.

Thank you for the report. I submitted a suggested change to the description of Johnny Vegas regarding descending into Solar Slab Gully from anchors on Johnny Vegas.

And I agree that your experience may not represent what happened to Brian.

My heart goes out to friends and family close to Brian, and significantly to the women who attended to him. No words can express.

JM: Part of my recommendation was to remove all reference from JV about rapping into SS with a single rope ... unless someone has a clear description of how to do that.

My suggestion should appear as a link on JV soon. I welcome more detailed suggestions to help avoid situations as noted by seuss.

Edit to add: Handren's guide (& summitpost.org) indicates Frieda's Flake joins JV somewhere during JV's 3rd pitch. The issue Seuss reported was rapping from higher than that on JV.

I also stand corrected.

I had been thinking of the rap by the boulder at the top of Solar Slab Gully on its west side (Johny Vegas side) as part of JV route. It does seem to make more sense to think of it as kind of serving as the 'summit' for lower tier routes. (thanks John Wilder).

I've also posted a suggested MP improvement to add a section for descent descriptions to the lower tier page mountainproject.com/v/solar… that would serve as a gathering point for all descent options in this area. See below image.

For others who know the rap descents and want to add clarifications and/or additional details about these descents, please feel free to post here.

Edit to add: If an admin or someone involved with the accident wishes these suggestions to be moved to a different thread, I'll do that.

Hi. This is so sad. It sounds like the kind of accident that anybody could make. Is it possible that he set up the rappel with a biner block for rapping on a single strand, and then set up his own belay device on the pull strand? That would explain why the rope was in his belay device, if that's in fact the case. I don't know if this is consistent with the rest of the facts, and, of course, we probably won't know all the details. Yet another reminder to be extra careful.

First this is very sad and my best wishes go out to the friends and family of the victim. I think however, the beta about rapping the route is very clear in the guidebook: You basically have two options that I know of, rap Johnny Vegas with two ropes, or rap the gully with one. There are 5 very short, well marked raps in the gully. If you miss one, and you have a 60m rope you may have to do some downclimbing. I have personally rapped the gully twice, and found the rap anchors very easy to find, if you move slowly and look around. My advice to to not skip any of them, and that's I what I tell everyone I see on the ascent. I think it is standard practice for rock climbers to use both strands to rap on; I see canyoneers do things very differently. Perhaps a good lesson here is about when to use a single strand rappel and when not to. And to read the beta of a descent very carefully.I dont mean to sound callous, but this is one of the most popular routes in the park and is also a quite straightforward gully descent by Red Rock standards.Again my sympathies to the family and friends of the victim.

Leslie McG wrote:I have personally rapped the gully twice, and found the rap anchors very easy to find, if you move slowly and look around. They are essentially 50m apart from one another.

Anchors 50m apart would require two 60m ropes then. Was this a typo?

Sorry, Bob, I stand corrected. I meant that the rap can be done with one 50m rope. Having done with with both a 60m and a 70m I can say with certainty there was plenty of extra rope on each rap. In fact I watched a party begin the rap with two ropes tied together only to get frustrated by all the extra unnecessary rope they had. I told them pack one rope up and the raps would be easier. They were very grateful.

Leslie McG wrote:First this is very sad and my best wishes go out to the friends and family of the victim. I think however, the beta about rapping the route is very clear in the guidebook: You basically have two options that I know of, rap Johnny Vegas with two ropes, or rap the gully with one. There are 5 very short, well marked raps in the gully. If you miss one, and you have a 60m rope you may have to do some downclimbing. I have personally rapped the gully twice, and found the rap anchors very easy to find, if you move slowly and look around. My advice to to not skip any of them, and that's I what I tell everyone I see on the ascent. I think it is standard practice for rock climbers to use both strands to rap on; I see canyoneers do things very differently. Perhaps a good lesson here is about when to use a single strand rappel and when not to. And to read the beta of a descent very carefully.I dont mean to sound callous, but this is one of the most popular routes in the park and is also a quite straightforward gully descent by Red Rock standards.Again my sympathies to the family and friends of the victim.

There is definitely a third option to add to your two: the anchor behind a boulder on the west side of Solar Slab Gully. So you basically have at least three options. And it may very well be that the third option is the one taken on the day of the accident.

So far, I have found the third option described with clarity in neither a guide book nor on the main part of an MP page.

This is not the first time "undocumented" rap options have arisen over time that are not already in a guide book. Sometimes the added option can even make a guide-book option - or MP.com description - seem misleading. That is when MP.com can shine in keeping up to date. But it relies on users to work the MP channels to do so.

Another edit to add only for the purpose of illustrating the potential issue with new rap stations near old ones:

There was a VERY good example of old descriptions becoming misleading due to new rap anchors on a popular summit in NM: Sugarloaf. The summit is large and now has at least three rap anchors as one walks a kind of ridge (overall, there are four options now, each with very different terrain / rap sequences).

A lot of old descriptions of one of the Sugarloaf descents refer to simply walking the ridge to the one rap anchor that was out there. That simple description was on the main page, in various route descriptions, and in old written material. The two newer options were reached sooner along the ridge. And so more than one party unaware of the issue took a newer option which had different numbers and lengths of raps.

I know of one party ended up with a stuck cord as they tried to correct mid-rap by swinging over in the desired direction. Another party of six spent a handful of hours in the dark trying to figure out why things seemed so unexpected as they explored their way down unknown vertical terrain. Likely, there were many other "misunderstandings" until the Sugarloaf MP.com was updated; and there will still be some issues due to old information.

It may be a while before the guide books are revised. Again, this is where MP.com can shine by keeping up to date. But that depends on users initiating change through the available MP.com channels ... and why climbers generally need to be prepared to deal with such issues (this is not a comment about Brian; edit to add - indeed, it is not known for certainty here which anchor Brian's party started from).

[end of illustration]

Sounds eerily similar to an event in Yosemite recently
supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

With so much speculation I think its important to focus on some things, such as what would cause a single line to be no longer connected to an anchor? Having been involved in a rappelling fatality I am all too familiar with how tenuous our tether can be sometimes. Condolences to those involved, especially the two women. Although I can imagine what they must be going through I hope they can find peace in what happened and move on to enjoy rock climbing again.

GDavis wrote:With so much speculation I think its important to focus on some things, such as what would cause a single line to be no longer connected to an anchor?

There are many ways. Currently, there is not enough information in this thread to know the cause. In fact, it is unclear that Brian was rapping with the climbing rope rigged in a single-line fashion; similarly, there is no positive information here that he was using a complimentary tag line.

Much of the recent discussion I have participated in here is not speculation about the cause of the accident. Perhaps it would have been better to start another thread ... or perhaps not.

Much of the recent discussion regards an independent party of four having had difficulty while doing single-rope raps into Solar Slab Gully from an anchor on the west side behind a boulder - the Johny Vegas / Frieda's Flake / etc. side. In contrast, the 'standard' starting anchor for rapping the Solar Slab Gully with a single rope is higher up and on the east side.

Back to Brian's accident and regarding the location of his party's starting rap into Solar Slab Gully: all that can be said is that the west side rap station behind the boulder can not be ruled out (with the information currently available in this thread).

Note: briking commented in the Johnny Vegas description 10 days ago that a rap starting at the west-side-behind-the-boulder anchor with a single 70m rope is doable if one ends the first rap at an intermediate point on climber's left at a small ledge with a tat-tree. It was indicated up thread that Brian was using a single 60m rope ... don't know whether a rap with just a 60m rope will reach this reported tat-tree.

"... a rap starting at the west-side-behind-the-boulder anchor with a single 70m rope is doable if one ends the first rap at an intermediate point on climber's left at a small ledge with a tat-tree. It was indicated up thread that Brian was using a single 60m rope ... don't know whether a rap with just a 60m rope will reach this reported tat-tree."

Sounds like what we did with one 70m rope except the first rap station we reached, the "tat tree" anchor, was to climber's right, way right given the trouble we had swinging over to clip in. Again, don't like to think of rapping here with one 60m with the trouble we had.

I don't recall ever any difficulty reaching the rap anchors from the regular gully descent.

I wonder what the people with Brian recall about what happened.