Placing 5 piece bolts on lead

john strand wrote:Sheldon- I consider a small bit of hole flare part of the deal in granite. Pretty much every time, it doesn't lever the bolt much ( not enough to matter in a 3" bolt anyway) and keeps any potential rock fracture in check. A 5 pc will kinda sit in the edge of the hole this way..dicey, but it works. Good luck

Thanks John. I have been doing a slight flare already, even with two hands free, since it seemed to help the cone go in. Good point about it limiting rock fracture too, makes sense to me. I figure for the rare situation where I need to tap one in one handed, I can have a sling clipped to the hanger in case I drop it, as Geoff suggested above.

Edit to add: Jeremy, do you think a flare is inappropriate even in the first 1/8 inch of the hole? And by 4 thousandths, do you mean 4/1000 of an inch? Thanks

Alex Bury wrote:"As far as the original question - placing 5-pieces one-handed on lead sucks. Good 316ss stainless steel 3/8" stud bolts or 12mm Triplex (particularly if you're planning to upgrade to glue-ins after). If you're working in good granite and you really want one-handed and want to end up at 5-piece you can also use 1/4" buttonheads, then pull them (always come out easily), and drill the hole to 3/8" on rap later. This has the additional advantage of making the drilling time a lot lower. And the disadvantage that the bolt could break or pull on you even when new…added spice factor!" This is the advice you want. Personally, if the climbing is steep/hard enough that this is an issue, I grab my 1/2" RB's. You can drill, prep, and place with one hand. I've whipped a number of times on them. Quite solid in good rock with a well prep'ed hole.

Thanks Alex. 1/2" bolts and RB's do seem to be a good solution to one hand power drilling. Perhaps I will invest in some for this particular circumstance.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote:Bolts are not designed to be placed in a flare. The hole should be perpendicular and precise. Once your bit is down to about 4 thousandths worn, replace it.

True,,BUT.. a small amount, say 1/8" is not going to really weaken a 3" bolt. I'll take a 5% drop in strength ? to make the placement good,,,,you still have plenty of holding power.

Hell the hanger does as much or more leverage than a slight flare for the hole

Shelton Hatfield wrote: Jeremy, do you think a flare is inappropriate even in the first 1/8 inch of the hole? And by 4 thousandths, do you mean 4/1000 of an inch? Thanks

In my opinion yes. Once the bit has worn down to .004 the stud has a hard time going through.

AAAHHH lemme think on that one

I've placed a number of stainless power bolts on lead, one handed. Can be stressful if you're hanging on without a decent stance (!).

I've smushed the cone, but, find that it can create a spinner that way too (sticks to the shaft of the bolt too much sometimes). Check to see if the cone still travels up the bolt shaft if you use that method. Might also not seat as well since you've pre-formed the cone.

Since stainless is kinda soft (at least compared to carbon steel power bolts), I've left a drilled hole with sharp edges (no flare) and then stabbed the power bolt into the hole. The cone will usually stick and the bolt will just sorta sit there. Then, one precise hammer blow and you're off to the races. If you miss...then its a do over. Guess that's part of the fun, but, also fairly stressful as you start to get pumped from holding on...and you hope your aim and strike is perfect to initially seat the bolt.

I guess I remember placing some of those bolts on lead more than I do any bolt I've placed on rappel. Difference in establishing a route group up v top down too. Added spice to be sure.

That said, I'd much prefer to do ground up leading with wedge bolts. Easy and less stressful. Especially if its steep and the stances aren't any good.

Cheers!

^^^^ +1 regarding the spinner from a crushed cone.

I've placed a number of stainless power bolts on lead, one handed. Can be stressful if you're hanging on without a decent stance (!). I've smushed the cone, but, find that it can create a spinner that way too (sticks to the shaft of the bolt too much sometimes). Check to see if the cone still travels up the bolt shaft if you use that method. Might also not seat as well since you've pre-formed the cone. Since stainless is kinda soft (at least compared to carbon steel power bolts), I've left a drilled hole with sharp edges (no flare) and then stabbed the power bolt into the hole. The cone will usually stick and the bolt will just sorta sit there. Then, one precise hammer blow and you're off to the races. If you miss...then its a do over. Guess that's part of the fun, but, also fairly stressful as you start to get pumped from holding on...and you hope your aim and strike is perfect to initially seat the bolt. I guess I remember placing some of those bolts on lead more than I do any bolt I've placed on rappel. Difference in establishing a route group up v top down too. Added spice to be sure. That said, I'd much prefer to do ground up leading with studs. Easy and less stressful. Especially if its steep and the stances aren't any good. Cheers!</quote

Agree but never used studs? Also agree about being gripped in uncomfortable free stances getting it all together.... always as memorable as the climb itself.

Paul, by studs he is talking about wedge bolts. I've clipped plenty of those on your routes!

Placing bolts free and on lead are some of my most persistent memories !

Andrew Gram wrote:Paul, by studs he is talking about wedge bolts. I've clipped plenty of those on your routes!

Opps Sorry ..Ignorance is bliss !! Not up with modern terms... Never used the term Wedge Bolts either ....A bolt is a bolt

Andrew Gram wrote:Paul, by studs he is talking about wedge bolts. I've clipped plenty of those on your routes!

Correct...I fixed that in my post. Thanks!

USBRIT wrote: Opps Sorry ..Ignorance is bliss !! Not up with modern terms... Never used the term Wedge Bolts either ....A bolt is a bolt

Unless it's a machine screw

Thanks again for all the replies. I really appreciate the insight and hearing about everyone's experiences and opinions.

One question I put forth but didn't receive an answer to was regarding placing 1/4" buttonheads, to be pulled after the lead is over and replaced with beefier bolts.

When you pull buttonheads right after a lead, are you reusing the hangers?

I've never "forked" a buttonhead so I'm not sure if the hanger is damaged at all in the process. I imagine that since they have relatively low pull out, that with the proper technique the hanger could emerge unscathed. But I can also envision conservative climbers wanting to toss them.

What do you do?

Thanks

Shelton,

Forking is going to bend the hanger almost always. That said I have had rockfall bend over hangers and I cold bent them back. Maybe not the best but the 2 in the last 10 years I've had to do still hold a fall so far....

One handed stabbing technique. Bolt assembled out of your bolt bag; cone into your mouth. Grasp the hammer and back the hanger and bolt head against the side of the hammer. One swing and you don't need much force to start it.

I'm using an old Chouinard Alpine Hammer in the photo but you can use any hammer.

Carpenters have been doing this one handed trick since nails were invented.
My 2 cents...don't do twice what you can do once.
Bolt sensible and bolt well. Tom

Ya..but now carpenters use screws !

1/4"..are you using 3/8 hangers ? a bit dicey. Its tough to not fuck up a hanger when removing unless it's a bad placement IMO,,your gonna get some bend, is it bad enough ?? up to you I guess.

Thomas Beck wrote:Shelton, Forking is going to bend the hanger almost always... One handed stabbing technique. Bolt assembled out of your bolt bag; cone into your mouth. Grasp the hammer and back the hanger and bolt head against the side of the hammer. One swing and you don't need much force to start it.

Tom, good to know about the hangers. And thanks a ton for the pictures and detailed description. I don't know if I would have thought to use the side of the hammer, but it makes so much sense after seeing it. Thank you

john strand wrote:1/4"..are you using 3/8 hangers ? a bit dicey. Its tough to not fuck up a hanger when removing unless it's a bad placement IMO,,your gonna get some bend, is it bad enough ?? up to you I guess.

John, If I was to use 1/4" bolts I think I'd get some of those pretty little moses hangers. A bit pricey at 6 bucks a pop though, especially if they're gonna get all buggered up being pulled. Maybe some day I'll have a machine shop and can make my own. In the mean time I'm looking forward to trying to stab some 3/8" 5 piece bolts in. Thanks for all your input.

Some other local developer told me he used Tapcons for aiding through stuff to get to the next bolt placement.

I experimented with it on limestone at ground level and my placement survived a bounce test but, I've never got on something so desperate for me I felt I should be trying Tapcons. They will leave a hole but they unscrew with a cordless impact drill so no spalling or hanger deformation.

In any case you are going to have the same "one handed" placement issues. Getting the Tapcon hex head into the magnetic holder on your cordless impact driver is possible but hard to do one handed

confast.com/articles/instal…

-------------------------------------------------------
A little thread drift; when I bolting on lead with a cordless drill I always always remove the bit and rack the drill when the hole is done. I also ask my belayer to remind me if I forget to remove the bit. I have come off a stance before, during or just after drilling and you don't want to chance having the drill bit stuck in you

Thomas Beck wrote:Some other local developer told me he used Tapcons for aiding through stuff to get to the next bolt placement. I experimented with it on limestone at ground level and my placement survived a bounce test but, I've never got on something so desperate for me I felt I should be trying Tapcons. They will leave a hole but they unscrew with a cordless impact drill so no spalling or hanger deformation. In any case you are going to have the same "one handed" placement issues. Getting the Tapcon hex head into the magnetic holder on your cordless impact driver is possible but hard to do one handed confast.com/articles/instal… ------------------------------------------------------- A little thread drift; when I bolting on lead with a cordless drill I always always remove the bit and rack the drill when the hole is done. I also ask my belayer to remind me if I forget to remove the bit. I have come off a stance before, during or just after drilling and you don't want to chance having the drill bit stuck in you

Not easy to put drill bit back in one handed assume you if you are actually drilling on lead from free stances ...Having drill ready is the risk you take.