what kind of bolts are you using for southern sandstone?

Before the arguing begins:

No access issues, I have experience placing bolts, and this is an undeveloped area with no existing ethics.

I'm looking at developing some routes near my home in Northwest Alabama. All of them will require extensive cleaning on rappel, so I will also place any bolts by rappel, using a power drill. I would say the rock quality is most similar to an area like Steele. This is just outside of the Bankhead National forest, so if you are familiar with that area, the rock is pretty much the same. Not exactly T-wall quality....

I can't see any of these climbs every being quality enough to see traffic other than myself and some friends/ family, but I would like to equip them to last and bolt some projects for myself. But who knows, there is a lot of virgin rock in this area.

So what type of bolts are you folks using on this type of Sandstone? I replaced a bunch of bolts when living in Alaska, but that was all on granite and greywacke (the Chugach choss outside of Anchorage). I was also learning the basics of bolting then, so I was more focused on the process rather than the bolts specs. I also was not the one purchasing the bolts.

So whats up? Specifics please?

Fixe bolts, 3/8" x 3", with stainless hangers. This is very typical and is what I use at Steele, since you mentioned it. I have pulled over 100 bolts in the last year and have seen every type imaginable. I firmly believe that the specs above are the way to go in the SE, be it sandstone or granite. I like double ring anchors for routes you want to be able to toprope or for multiple pitches...which you are unlikely to be dealing with. If you want people to lead the route and find another rappel station, I encourage you to leave the rings off. Ending at hangers-only ensures lazy climbers don't TR through your rings....a handy mechanism.

I hate the Powers-style 5-piece bolts and they are hard to remove. Avoid at all costs.

Brandon you and Ben should try to get together and climb. And both of you should come climb with me once it warms up a bit and ive got time again.

UncleBen wrote: I hate the Powers-style 5-piece bolts and they are hard to remove. Avoid at all costs.

If you go to 1/2" instead of using 3/8" issues like loosening up are greatly reduced, though I personally would recommend good SS glue-ins if you know what you are doing and take the time to really figure out the best placements. At Rumney (schist) the very first routes I bolted using 3/8" SS Rawls and on popular routes some of them loosened up. I haven't noticed that problem with the 1/2" ones and they also don't require such a low torque (though still only 25 flbs) SS ones shouldn't be that hard to remove once you have the technique down. Like Ben, I like the double ring anchors too, also beefy double quicklinks or Ramshorns for single pitch. Bare hanger anchors are jacked IMO. I like 5 pc over stud bolts and glue-ins over 5 pc for the most part.

Glue ins are not the norm in the south.

I use 1/2" stainless 5 piece bolts for most routes I put up in Arkansas sandstone. You could definitely use 3/8" as well in most situations. Just try to keep it stainless, especially since the south tends to be humid.

webdog wrote:Glue ins are not the norm in the south.

I've noticed that. Things go slow down there. I remember asking around when I was thinking of doing some new routes years ago down at the red just to make sure not to ruffle any local feathers and the locals discouraged glue-ins. I remembered thinking to myself "This is about the perfect use for glue-ins. What is wrong with these people?" The only thing I could think of is that there may be an issue of routes breaking too much so bolt position would have to be changed or they had experience of people who didn't know what they were doing and made a mess of it. I guess non stainless bolts and home made hangers are better. A friend has been using the wave bolts down that way lately and people seem to like them, so there is progress.

Ben, are those the fixe wedge bolts?

What ever you choose, and a lot of it is personal preference, make sure it's beefy and/or quite resistant to corrosion. I've seen more than my fair share of corroded bolts around chattanooga, and your bolts will have to stand up to about the same or a little more corrosion.

Oh and FWIW, the bad bolts i've seen weren't all button heads and star drives; I've seen a fair number of 3/8" fixe and rawl bolts in pretty bad shape, so it's not just ancient relics that a rusting.

Not sure who you talked to or how long ago this was but all rebolting in the Red is now being done with SS glue-ins. They are not particularly popular with developers for new routes just yet, but are slowly gaining steam. You'll notice many of the area classics are now equipped with SS Glue-ins. It takes a little education for people to start accepting new things, different than what they're used to but we are definitely over that hump now.

M Sprague wrote: I've noticed that. Things go slow down there. I remember asking around when I was thinking of doing some new routes years ago down at the red just to make sure not to ruffle any local feathers and the locals discouraged glue-ins. I remembered thinking to myself "This is about the perfect use for glue-ins. What is wrong with these people?" The only thing I could think of is that there may be an issue of routes breaking too much so bolt position would have to be changed or they had experience of people who didn't know what they were doing and made a mess of it. I guess non stainless bolts and home made hangers are better. A friend has been using the wave bolts down that way lately and people seem to like them, so there is progress.

Great to hear. It was quite a while ago, maybe 10 years. I haven't been there in about 7. It's past time to get back, as I love southern sandstone. It beats any limestone I have experienced so far.

The first glue-ins I ever saw, maybe in the early 90s were actually at the New. Some Frenchies had bolted a couple routes on a big boulder at Beauty Mtn. (Mongoloid bldr?) and used big galvanized glue-ins but they didn't countersink them so they stuck way out. I was kind of appalled at how obtrusive they looked but appreciated that they were probably a lot stronger than the Porter Jarrard bolts so got on them. It is funny how perception changes, as later on we ended up using the same style bolts for a long time at Rumney, only countersunk. We have since moved on to the SS glue-ins.

Hilti 1/2" SS wedge, preferably with the big Fixe hanger so that draws don't get hung up, however they look like complete garbage on the wall. Because of that, I've been using Climbtech's wave bolts and core drilling. Most of Porter's and Doug's old stuff have been a lot better off than I had expected them to be. We are trying to use glue-ins more here at the New. Endless wall classics are starting to be retrofitted with them, and core drilled whenever possible.

Brandon.Phillips wrote:Ben, are those the fixe wedge bolts?

Yessir.

But like Chris says, for super bombproofness, 1/2 could be advisable.

I am thinking Glue Ins are the way of the future....but like Sprague mentions, we're slow down here.

....just the way we like it.

I'm not a fan of the 5 piece powerbolts either. Need two hands to place them, they can work loose and are hard to get back tight, and they are kinda expensive in SS (mandatory).

I think glue in's are a good idea in really popular areas, have clipped a few wave bolts at the Red and thought they were pretty cool. Pricey and you have to wait on the glue to set up before you can send your FA. The glue can be messy too of course.

Good quality SS stud bolts in 3/8 by 2 3/4 or 3" is a good general purpose choice. Like Ben said, hard to go wrong with Fixe. I also like the Hilti ones a lot. Most bang for the buck I've found are the thunderstuds. I just switched from Powerstuds and like the Thunderstuds better so far. They can be found online from various vendors, the last one I used was Concrete Fastening Systems Inc.

Also, since the OP said he didn't expect the routes to get a lot of traffic, I'd def go with the SS stud bolts of your choice.

My favorite hanger is the mad rock.

I've used the powers glue lately with the waves. It sets up quick, less than an hour in the temperature I was in and it's gray, not pink like the Hilti stuff. The only issue are the glue gun tips. It's not uncommon to have it set so hard that you have to use a new tip for each hole. Colder temps are much more ideal for the powers stuff.

Southern sandstone varies in hardness a great bit so there is no one standard bolt spec to cover the varieties other than the fact that all hardware should be stainless steel. Locals should take into account rock quality and amount of effort to place to decide what is most appropriate for the circumstances.

General speaking though, in the harder rocks approaching New River levels of hardness a 3/8" 5-piece from Powers is a great option. Even a 3/8" wedge bolt is great in really hard rock, so long as it is stainless of course. But of the various wedge bolts available the ones from Hilti are far superior to the rest. The threads are extruded versus machined and the design just makes for easier and more secure placement. Some people don't like wedge bolts because they are not easy to remove, though new techniques make it possible in a lot of situations. However, given that stainless bolts placed almost 25 years ago at the New show zero rust now, any future needs to replace are unknown. Some believe that in our climate a stainless bolt can last for hundreds of years. We'll see, or somebody will far into the future.

If the rock is on the softer end of the spectrum then a 1/2" 5-piece is the way to go unless one can do a glue-in. Glue-ins like the wave bolt are the best of all worlds in all situations for strength and longevity, but of course they take more time to be useable. One method that my partner and I have employed when establishing ground-up routes in softer sandstone is to place Fixe 12mm Triplex or 1/2" ClimbTech Legacy Bolts because they are easily removable, especially the Legacy Bolts. This gives us the option of removing the bolt and replacing it with a glue-in in the same hole once we decide that we are happy with the bolt placement. Also, the Legacy and Triplex bolts can be reused after they have been removed. Finally, acryllic glue like the Red Head A7 is preferable to the Hilti glue because it only needs 30 minutes to cure versus 24 hours for the Hilti, and it is a nice dark grey color as well.

One last word about camo on hangers and bolt heads. We now bead blast all of our hangers, and bolt heads to knock the shine off the stainless steel. They end up a perfect flat Grey with a matte finish and there is no worries as to paint chipping off and exposing the shiny stainless which usually happens with a little time.

A7 is what we have been using in NH for quite a while, to good effect. It also can be used when the rock is a little damp with no problems. Handy when working on routes because it is a little wet to be climbing.

Neil pretty much just summed up the thought process and hardware considerations every equipper, in any area other than near the coasts, should go through. His succinct comment should get reposted in every bolting "debate."

Totally agree Neil, one thing though is that NPS requires 1/2" here in the gorge.

M Sprague wrote:The first glue-ins I ever saw, maybe in the early 90s were actually at the New. Some Frenchies had bolted a couple routes on a big boulder at Beauty Mtn. (Mongoloid bldr?) and used big galvanized glue-ins but they didn't countersink them so they stuck way out.

Yeah, not sure what boulder that it; Stabat Mater on Ram's Head at Beauty is one of the earliest glue-in routes at the NRG, was done by Marc Le Menestral back in the early 90s.

I think it was the Euro Boulder, routes Hot Bip and Mongoloid. I tried to look it up here and there was nothing, but I found it on rockclimbing.com That is kind of sad. We've got to get New River info filled in!